To pro-choicers: Talk about abortion the way you've been talking about teen sex, embracing an ideal number of zero. To pro-lifers: Accept that the best way to advance toward zero is through voluntary prevention.

What the f is he talking about? Yes, it's true that wingnut conservatives believe in abstinence before marriage (NOT abstinent teens. They're fine with pregnant 16 year olds if they're married). Yes, it's true that people who support choice think that people who don't want to get pregnant should use contraceptives, rather than roll the dice and have an abortion if snake-eyes comes up.

[waitaminit. This doesn't even parse. what he means is to talk about teen sex the way you talk about abortion. What a maroon.]

So, yes, the pro-choice people make sense. Don't get pregnant unless you want to. If you have an unwanted pregnancy you should be able to choose to terminate it. But better not to be pregnant. Nothing hard here.

But the wingnut position is not coherent. They're not just against abortions for teens. They're against abortion for everybody. They're not just against abortion, they're against contraception. They're not just against constraception for teens. They're against contraception for everybody.

More to the point, that even if Saletan has been blinded by the clever ploy these people have adopted--calling themselves "pro-life" and talking a lot about abortion--means that their primary concern is abortion, it isn't so.

Lord Saletan--the conservatives do not care about abortion, per se. They talk about abortion because people like you think abortion is icky, and that they have a point when they tell you how icky abortion is. But abortion is not the issue they care about. It's just the issue that YOU care about.

It's like late term abortion. They don't talk about that as much as they do because they care about it. They talk about because as the pregnancy gets closer to term, the more uncomfortable people are with abortion.

But this is a tactic, not a goal.

The goal is not ending abortion The goal is ending women's control over their own reproductive lives. Reducing the number of abortions by increasing the number of women on the pill is a terrible failure. It means that there are fewer abortions, and abortion is their wedge issue.

If abortions go to zero, they are not going to celebrate, because it will mean that women are making their own choices about when to have sex, and when to have children.

It is astounding that Saletan could have spent so much time with these people and still not understand that abortion is a proximate goal, not an ultimate goal.

Isn't every sperm sacred?

Jesus' General is on this. Had an event last week honoring every sperm.

jayackroyd:

The goal is not ending abortion The goal is ending women's control over their own reproductive lives.

I am not a pro-lifer, I believe that people should make their own choices good or bad. I am not against abortion, people do make mistakes, woman get raped, health issues can make it a necessity, I just don't believe that (other than for the reasons stated) women would have no control over their reproductive lives if it wasn't available to them.

Unless a woman is raped she does have control over her own reproductive life. It is called choosing whether or not to have sex, with or without protection. Sex education has been in schools (at least where I live) since the 70's so teenagers know the ramifications of having sex. If you choose to have sex without protection then you are choosing to take the chance of getting pregnant. Women including teenagers without the means to afford the pill at regular price have been able to get it from Planned Parenthood cheaper based on income for over 35 years.

The people who call themselves pro-life focus on abortion in their public discourse. But that is not what is important to them. if it were, there'd be condoms in every pew, and sunday school would start out with a brief reflection on how not to get pregnant.

The point is not that making abortion easily or not so easily available is an attempt to control women's reproductive lives.

The point is that people who SAY they want to make abortion illegal are not actually concerned about abortion. Again, if they were, they'd be strong advocates of sex education and easy access to contraception. And, if they were really serious, they'd encourage same sex erotic play for young teens. (See them get all upset now. See--it' s not about preventing unwanted pregnancy.)

People who call themselves pro-life are actually concerned about making it unpleasant and dangerous for women to have sex, in or out of wedlock. They don't like the pill, period. They're opposed to IUDs. They don't want women to be able to run their own lives.

Do not be fooled. Because you believe that abortion should be more tightly controlled, and also believe that young women should have access to information about contraceptives, and contraceptives themselves, you are not one of them.

There is some truth in what you say Jay. However I find a comparison to the Muslim world to be interesting. Surely they are even more conservative in forcing women into traditional gender roles than fundy Christians. But I think they tend to be more tolerant of abortion.

How did abortion become the bogeyman for US Christians fanatics? (or, is the better question- why don't Fundy Christians insist women cover their heads and stay home)

Maybe thier afraid that jeeeeessussss will be aborted if abortions remain safe and legal?Maybe they are afraid that if birthcontroll is made much more prevelant jeeessusss maynot be concieved,maybe they think all these completely moronic things .I'm just say'in!

every sperm sacred? Meaning a man jerking off is equivalent to millions of abortions, from all those "potential babies" spilled out on the shower wall? GOD FORBID we go that far. Please keep in mind, it's all the fault of the womenfolk, always. If you remember that you can't go wrong.