dubya has never made any bones about not going to nam (he flew 102s in the air guard) but he did serve as did gates as vietnam era veterans...

their families protected them from the draft (does that mean that they were loved?)which is both slimey and commendable -- random is not a word that the rich and their corporate suckhounds had to deal with in any real way during the 60s and as jerry brown said 'and beyond!' jerry didn't go to nam either.

i worked recently with young volunteers who are currently serving in stan and iraq...they're civilians -- far forward -- doing the heavy lifting for the cia and state department. they agree with dubya's unguarded feelings about the (cough!) international effort: at least their part of it.

dubya, as president, has consciously or unintendedly made longterm strategic, tactical decisions that put the u s in place to influence the hostile intent of the prc, venezuela and of course the fascist arab european colonialist middle east. it's just the beginning...mccain will have to deal with even tougher, more futuristic strategies.

like most editors at slate, fred, you...like dubya's conversational musings...are public. fortunately they have no effect on u s strategic initiatives in defense of our country's economic and political initiatives in a fascist, colonial world.

unlike dubya, however, you nor slate have any effect or value in any real sense and of course as values relate to principles you come up far shorter than the public musings or real actions of the president of the united states.

slate is a cowardly political media construct...when it's not involved in its own personal daydreams.

let's keep things at slate irrelevant and a lot less personal. it enhances the fey experiences of your life without consequence...

You're name is correct~~about YOU.

I also served in the Vietnam era.
However, I served IN Nam.
In fact, I volunteered to go which is a long story that you have no need to know.

This cowardly punk in the whitehouse has no concept of reality.
His "reality" was hiding behind bars in Ala while drunk.

As a REAL American and a n American veteran, I have less than no repect for the punk.
There is nothing cowardly about the article.

Although you say you deal/have dealt with Iraq vets, you don't say whether YOU have been in combat.
If you haven't, you have no basis for legitimate comment.

Well said, shipmate. :-)

i am a decorated, disabled combat vietnam veteran who has served his country far forward since as a private extraction service for both foreign, u s government and fortune 500 companies. i am currently over the hill, but recently have served as a state depatment contact as a private employee of an international organization. i am currently out of all of that.

you and fred and your shipmate are personally insulting and character assassinating the current president of the united states: in person, dubya might kick your ass...talk is cheap at slate. otherwise, dubya can handle bith you and slate if he wants to...

apparently, it's just political rant...but i can assure you dubya has done more for both the current and future security of the u s than mr. kinsley's media construct that couldn't make it in el lay where i hung out for 17 years. el lay and the world that it electronically represents is as tough as it gets. dubya kicked its ass for 8 years. wanna take one step forward.

stow it in your wall locker, sweatmeats.

No disrespect to you or your record, but your (or I suppose I should say our) boy has hosed us up for at least the next decade or two. There is nothing insulting or personal about that.

It goes far, far beyond left and right (as if those terms have any real meaning in America) and gets down to either doing things that work or doing things that do not work. We've been doing many things that have been known not to work. And they haven't been working. And we're still doing them.

I don't know why.

quill:

no sweat here...

fred and slate confuse politics and media hype with reality.

i can assure you that dubya for whatever reasons has put the united states back in the deal that europe nearly had us (thanks to bill clinton) forced out of since desert storm...

desert storm was daddy bush's deal with europe.

europe didn't hold up their end of it and saddam (one fascist hand up me) paid the price...but more importantly europe has to come to wash dc to suck up.

fred's post was defamatory and cowardly: beyond political rant by any standard...

Yeah, Fred was obviously a little bit pissed when he wrote that. I can't really blame him, though.

I could be wrong, but I can't see this situation going anywhere but south. I get pissed a lot these days, too. Usually when I'm watching my equipment falling apart and my best people seeking greener pastures and I stop to wonder what anyone (besides Halliburton) is getting out of any of this.

quill:

it sucks out in the freaky-flukey...

you've got one admirer here.

i won't diminish your personal sacrifice for your idea of your country and i neither will i attempt to quantify or qualify it. a conscious choice is a lot more than most folks can handle nowadays.

good luck and don't sweat the politics...america has a lot more battles ahead of us. hopefully, we'll always have young volunteers like yourself...

cash in or out if you get the chance.

I live in a kind of small town where 50% of the residents are military and ex-military, including Special Forces of 2 branches, lots of retired admirals, generals and other assorted brass. Given that 50% of the place is actually a base, enlisted folks are also a big part of my daily life. The town is probably 98% Republican, so the following comment made by a 4-star gentleman the other day is interesting:

"Bush?? I can't believe I ever voted for that asshole!"

I can tell you that a Bush rally around here is probably the best way to grab yourself a bit of quiet time - the guys serving now generally agree with the 4-Star opinion. Not that the folks currently serving will usually offer an opinion lightly - the list of those who will not re-up is impressive -

There are always those who confuse the dignity of the office with the asshole currently sitting in the chair, but most folks are genuinely pissed at BUSH for disrespecting the office, not the other way around.

lib:

asymmetrical warfare is constant and nasty if you're under it.

there will be a shake-out (no disrespect to the current volunteers who don't like it) but it's the future.

the hands-on stuff is brutal and dangerous.

all the pain that the u s can bring from over the horizon helps, but now and in the future, someone will have to occupy the real estate.

four star generals are really politicians anyway.

good luck to you and yours.

dubya, as president, has consciously or unintendedly made longterm strategic, tactical decisions that put the u s in place to influence the hostile intent of the prc, venezuela and of course the fascist arab european colonialist middle east.

Dumbya, as president, as consciously or unintentedly made longterm strategic, tactical decisions that put the u.s. in a place to influence jack shit.

Influence the PRC? Who do you think we have gone in debt to in order to finance this fiasco, dumbfuck?

Thanks to dumbya, the world is fed up with us, our military is tied up and exhausted, and we're flat broke. Yeah, great shape this disaster of a president has left us in.

mar:

it's the will to truth, mar...we've all got it except dubya got to use his.

iraq is conquered and occupied. we're being nice to the colonized locals like saddam wasn't and they haven't got their horns pounded in yet. check back in 10 years or so and you'll see a difference.

now, i know being a sensitive, educated media pol like fred, you ask: 'but what will make the will to truth examine itself?' nietzsche couldn't answer the question even after creating and playing a piano concerto...but the answer is:

by creating an organ or perception with which to consciously regard socratic forms.

our war fighters are fine (except for those who no longer want the combat arms).

our fight is just begining in the greater asymmetrical world and dubya has only engaged a handful of colonial fascist clowns who don't have the introspection to admit that they're european and soviet leftovers lost in time.

the strategic objectives will eventually end up on the open market (rather than in china and europe's colonial playpen) and a healthier world may ensue.

if the troops are tired (says you), then lets pull back a couple of hundred yards and send in some inspired over the horizon stuff. i know that's cruel, but if the troops need r&r then it will have to happen.

china can buy a futures contract on iraq oil instead of a somolian genocidal contract on africans. i know that you and b. hussein o. support that...

calm down, there's a lot more democracy and peace we have to sow in the world without the u n or europe.

But I think you should take an extra one of the brown and yellow pills tonight, or tomorrow you might end up in the quiet room.

My 78 year old mother could whoop GWB's butt any day and my 12 year old nephew could out smart him on anything. Bush has ruined this country in many ways.

Please tell us all what good things bush has done for this country. I doubt you can.

I can think of only one thing and that is he put a stop to partial birth abortions. Other then that,everything he has done has either divided this country, destroyed our standing in the world, made more enemies and has had thousands of people killed. The list goes on and on. What a guy.

I'm sure the midget in chief would kick all our asses, he's a "real" man who never had the guts to put his money where his mouth is.