In response to CD...in a post he wrote.

It is fact then, that you honestly believe you can sin, hurt, and cause problems within society, and between people, with out ever facing any form of consequence, because you believe in god?

It is fact then, that you are lawless, and inhumane, simply due to the fact that any action you take, or any harm you cause, is forgivable by God?

So, you believe that believing in God gives you a license to harm, hurt, sin, kill, or whatever....because you have no judge in this world? You honestly believe God is that forgiving?

This is my second major argument with religion, the fact that you could go about life everyday, without fear of consequence, or judgment, simply due to the sick fact that you believe God will always forgive you?

This decree you allow yourself to implement in your life is a sick, and twisted allotment of some self applied freedom, that is covered by some demented insurance policy from the heavens above.

This is why men such as you are able to commit hideous crimes, murders, killings, and molestation, because you believe you are untouchable. What right do you have to be so selfish toward your fellow man, simply because you can do whatever you wish, commit any discouraged action, because God will forgive you?

Man needs no god to be good, because when man starts believing his actions are unaccountable from judgment by mankind, he starts walking down a very dangerous path.

When man sees his path is only correct by walking it with mankind's conscience concerns in his heart, then a man without god is less likely to cause harm, simply due to his knowledge that he will face consequences here on earth.

In your true temperament, you are a person who can do whatever he wishes, say, and apply hate, and hurt others without regard for your fellow man....because you believe in god.....and will be forgiven....how wonderful!

When a person believes he is untouchable, is this person a person to be trusted with societies simple laws of responsible actions?

When man walks a fine line of belief that he is going to be forgiven, and teeters on the side of diminished respect for his fellow man, how close is a person such as this to the edge of committing harm?

When a man has zero thoughts of earthly punishments, does this give this person a license to do harm, simply due to the fact his God will forgive him, maybe even reward him?

September 911....The men who attacked America believed they were going to get their just rewards from their chosen god, because they were acting in the same way as most believers of any god does. They were following a command that benefited their gods word, and the practical idea of forgiveness from the god they believe in, allows for actions to be committed without any form of respect, or concern for the human race.

Is it possible to consider that godlessness, and god fearing are the same? If you believe you will always be forgiven by a higher force, why would you ever worry about your actions? You can fear gods wrath, unless you ask for forgiveness, then you are a free agent outside the realm of man, free to do whatever you wish, because you can receive forgiveness...

Thats disturbing!

One of my more interesting collections of Jewish thought includes an interesting criticism of the Christian notion of forgiveness which is similar to what you suggest, that it leaves someone free to do things knowing that forgiveness is available, and once forgiveness is obtained, free to re-offend.

Personally I take a very different idea towards forgiveness. The issue is that if I do something which harms others, I believe I have an obligation to pay them back for it. At that point, it is not a matter of forgiveness but the fact that this obligation is fulfilled. Only if that becomes impossible should I forgive myself the failing of being unable to do this and move on. Same thing with others. If someone inflicts harm on me, they owe me a debt. If that debt is not worth collecting, then I forgive it so I am not encumbered by it.

The Jewish concept of atonement seems more to my liking than is the Christian idea of forgiveness.

Less of that "get out of jail free" mentality.

Pitchfork:

In response to CD...in a post he wrote.

It is fact then, that you honestly believe you can sin, hurt, and cause problems within society, and between people, with out ever facing any form of consequence, because you believe in god?

It is fact then, that you are lawless, and inhumane, simply due to the fact that any action you take, or any harm you cause, is forgivable by God?

So, you believe that believing in God gives you a license to harm, hurt, sin, kill, or whatever....because you have no judge in this world? You honestly believe God is that forgiving?

This is my second major argument with religion, the fact that you could go about life everyday, without fear of consequence, or judgment, simply due to the sick fact that you believe God will always forgive you?

This decree you allow yourself to implement in your life is a sick, and twisted allotment of some self applied freedom, that is covered by some demented insurance policy from the heavens above.

This is why men such as you are able to commit hideous crimes, murders, killings, and molestation, because you believe you are untouchable. What right do you have to be so selfish toward your fellow man, simply because you can do whatever you wish, commit any discouraged action, because God will forgive you?

Man needs no god to be good, because when man starts believing his actions are unaccountable from judgment by mankind, he starts walking down a very dangerous path.

When man sees his path is only correct by walking it with mankind's conscience concerns in his heart, then a man without god is less likely to cause harm, simply due to his knowledge that he will face consequences here on earth.

In your true temperament, you are a person who can do whatever he wishes, say, and apply hate, and hurt others without regard for your fellow man....because you believe in god.....and will be forgiven....how wonderful!

When a person believes he is untouchable, is this person a person to be trusted with societies simple laws of responsible actions?

When man walks a fine line of belief that he is going to be forgiven, and teeters on the side of diminished respect for his fellow man, how close is a person such as this to the edge of committing harm?

When a man has zero thoughts of earthly punishments, does this give this person a license to do harm, simply due to the fact his God will forgive him, maybe even reward him?

September 911....The men who attacked America believed they were going to get their just rewards from their chosen god, because they were acting in the same way as most believers of any god does. They were following a command that benefited their gods word, and the practical idea of forgiveness from the god they believe in, allows for actions to be committed without any form of respect, or concern for the human race.

Is it possible to consider that godlessness, and god fearing are the same? If you believe you will always be forgiven by a higher force, why would you ever worry about your actions? You can fear gods wrath, unless you ask for forgiveness, then you are a free agent outside the realm of man, free to do whatever you wish, because you can receive forgiveness...

Thats disturbing!

You guys are a bunch of sick puppies!!! Attempting to project your own obvious moral weakness onto Christians. Attempting to impose your carnal,materialist,self serving,temporal values onto a Spiritual people.

"Is it possible to consider that godlessness, and god fearing are the same? If you believe you will always be forgiven by a higher force, why would you ever worry about your actions? You can fear gods wrath, unless you ask for forgiveness, then you are a free agent outside the realm of man, free to do whatever you wish, because you can receive forgiveness...

There is a "catch 22" there. GOD knows your heart.

The entire problem with Christian forgiveness is the extraordinarily stupid notion of unconditional love.

free to do whatever you wish, because you can receive forgiveness...

I have met too many people with this way of thinking. How do they know for sure that they will be forgiven regardless of what they do? I would think that there are some things that could/should not never be forgiven.

While often misapplied by Christians, unconditional love is not that stupid of a notion. Clearly you don't have kids of your own.

Bad Kharma:

While often misapplied by Christians, unconditional love is not that stupid of a notion. Clearly you don't have kids of your own.

You do not love your children unconditionally. Believe me: there are circumstances in which the love you feel for your children would end. Unconditional love does not exist. It's an egregious fallacy.

Actually, I do love my children unconditionally. They did nothing to deserve my love when they popped out of the womb. When I held them for the first time, they didn't have to perform some act to prove their worthiness for me. It may not exist for you, and more is the pity.

My own son went through a period of dumbassery when he was 16. He broke into my liquor cabinet, got drunk on my scotch, rode his bike to the mall and some busybody old lady smelled it on his breath. He was arrested for underage drinking and I paid the fine. He didn't even have to ask my forgiveness, I forgave him outright and we hugged.

Don't tell me I don't love my children unconditionally, you don't know me. Just because you can't fathom the simple concept of unconditional love in that shallow heart of yours doesn't give you the right to tell me what fallacy is or isn't.

I'm curious, Kharma. You called the lady a busybody & you said you hugged your kid & you paid his fine. What did you hope to teach him from that experience?

Love maybe?

He was going through a period after my divorce from his mother. He was brooding and his grades were plummeting. When kids do stupid things, it's often a plea for attention, so I gave it to him.

I am with you on this.

I cannot conceive of anything that would cause me to stop loving my daughter -- not that she has ever really put that to the test, mind you!

As to your son, I would have done exactly as you did!

Was this in relation to Yom Kippur Ein?

Well the Jewish practise (in its pureset sense) during Yom Kippur is real attonement for transgressions and a conscious attempt to not duplicate the transgression again. The xtian version is just lip service to me.

Nanotech wrote the following post at 03/12/2008 6:54 AM:

"You guys are a bunch of sick puppies!!! Attempting to project your own obvious moral weakness onto Christians. Attempting to impose your carnal,materialist,self serving,temporal values onto a Spiritual people."

Actually it is the xtians who sanitised there copies of what was originally written which acknowledges that carnality was an intrinstic part of creation. It is hardly a moral weakness. In fact it is more an abomination to not acknowledge that it was a part of creation.