If you're tired of rehashing the same debate every Jan. 22, here are two ideas that would advance the debate to a better place by this time next year...

Well, we could discuss the justifiable reasons for abortions, and agree that some of them may even be good reasons. We might even be able to come up with some possible solutions to the wave of unwanted pregnancies, though it is not likely. But the debate over abortion will never advance to a better place. Simply because there are only two positions- one position that is against terminating an innocent human being while still in vitro, and the other position that supports it. As for that nice comfortable shade of gray which we are all supposed to be looking for in the extremities of this debate over life and death... it simply does not exist.

Five days ago, in a speech honoring Roe's 35th anniversary, NARAL president Nancy Keenan reaffirmed the prevention message. "If we could prevent unintended pregnancy," said Keenan, "we could therefore reduce the need for abortion."...

Even with the best of planning, in the absence of a collective interest in the sanctity of human life, thus making unwanted children wanted, there will never be an end to this epidemic.

Keenan rejected the language of appropriateness: "I will never stand idly by while women who take responsibility for their own lives, and those who depend on them, have to contend with guilt and shame, with judgment and scorn heaped upon them—rather than the support and respect they deserve."...

Guilt and shame are not dictated by society; rather they are the appropriate emotions for ending the life of another human being, with the exception of people who are dealing with mental disorders and an inability to understand the ramifications of their actions. Many women experience these types of emotions because they are human and have come to a consciousness that they have done something horribly wrong, and appropriateness is never going to rectify that. While judgment and scorn is not appropriate, it is not the cause of internal suffering; the simple act of abortion is. For that reason, women should never be put in a position to choose between their aspirations and their children.

First let me say I'm 100% pro-choice and pro-abortion. Often having an abortion is the responsible thing to do. Yes, abortion is good.

BUT, I do agree with you that many that are pro-choice really appear to be torn by this. Take Keenan. To me she doesn't know where she stands.

First she says 'If we could prevent unintended pregnancy," said Keenan, "we could therefore reduce the need for abortion.".... This implies that reducing the number of aboritions is GOOD. Well that implies that abortions are BAD.

Then she says; "I will never stand idly by while women who take responsibility for their own lives, and those who depend on them, have to contend with guilt and shame, with judgment and scorn heaped upon them—rather than the support and respect they deserve."...

WELL shouldn't one feel some 'guilt and shame' over doing something bad (something that one wishes was reduced)?

Yea, Keenan is a nut case. But that doesn't change the fact that when faced with the choice of having a child one cannot support, and thus is a burden on society, the responsible choice is too abort that burden.

And YES, abort is the termination of life. Call it killing if you wish. I'm still pro-choice. If a women wishes to KILL what is growing inside of her that is up to her. PERIOD.

So as you say lets move on. As a society we need to remain pro-choice. What women do with that choice is up to them.

Owning up to one’s actions and accepting the consequences, whatever they may be, is the responsible choice. Placing up for adoption a child that one can not afford to take care of is the selfless, humane choice, which inevitably is the choice of less regret.

and how many children have you adopted?

Not enough people are stepping up to the plate and adopting children.

I am 100% pro-choice and I also think that some abortions should be retroactive, in otherwords I support capital punishment. If you are pro-life then put your money where your mouth is and be pro-life 100%, no war, no capital punishment, adopt the children who would have otherwise been aborted and pay more taxes to educate and raise these children.

Oh and I forgot, pro-life and accepting responsibility for sex also means availability of anti-contraceptives and educating the use of them in middle school when the little bastards become fertile and horny.

it's not about shades of gray. your argument about right/wrong etc... and how there are two ways to see the issue works on a personal level. it doesn't work on a societal level. This is not something that should be legislated. it should be the choice of the individual. if babies grew outside of women, then the world would have reason to think it should have a voice in what happens. people like you don't believe in freedom or liberty. if you like people telling you what to do so much, fine. but there are plenty of us out here who can think for ourselves.

and i don't see anything kooky about the idea that one can be pro-choice and not pro-abortion. it's perfectly logical. in most situations we deal with in life, it is better to prevent a problem before it happens than look to solve it after it does. it is more efficient, if nothing else.

deduction,

You make some valid points here. I am not pro-abortion, but I am a realist with a libertarian bent.

The issue for society is not whether abortion is good or bad. The fact is that abortion has always been with us. What we, as a society, have to determine is whether we will treat people who give or receive an abortion as criminals.

I remember when we did. It created a huge disparity of justice between the economic classes in our nation. If a woman seeking an abortion was wealthy, then she took a cruise, received treatment from a qualified doctor, and returned home un-pregnant. If, on the other hand, the woman was of more meager financial means; then she went to a black-market practitioner at great risk to her own life and was subject to be arrested and jailed for her actions.

You don't have to support abortion to support a woman's right to make a serious personal decision with which you ardently disagree.

Many anti-abortion activists, when asked what the criminal penalty should be for abortion, are at a loss to recommend one. It is something that they haven't really considered. Most of them don't really want to imprison the women, they just want to convince them to see the error of their ways.

It is possible to oppose abortion without asking the government to step in and enforce your moral judgment on others. It is probably a more effective method for advancing your cause. But the politicians don't gain anything from this method of activism.

To Heleva, You make some really good arguments...

1. Not enough people are stepping up to the plate to adopt, indeed, and those reasons are certainly worth investigating. Could it be that parents would rather raise a child with their own DNA and go to the expense of industrial fertilization than adopt? Could it be that this society does not regard motherhood as an admirable profession? Could it be that the majority of families do not function in a traditional manner anymore? Could it simply be that this society has become far too self serving and irresponsible?

2. The politics of pro-lifers appear inconsistent. First of all, I do not think that the sanctity of human life should be a matter of politics, more than it should be a matter of social transformation because the politics will naturally follow such transformation. As for capital punishment, there is a big difference between a justice system that litigates someone who is guilty and one that terminates an innocent human being who has not so much had the opportunity to even take a breath of fresh air. As for war and global gag, indeed it is very, very tragic that women are willing to sacrifice their own lives and ultra religious regimes are willing to compromise the welfare of their own communities under the delusion that they ought to pursue their own interests, in spite of evidence to the contrary; proving indeed just how much Satan is invested in this kind of rationale. However, we are not in a battle of flesh and blood, but of principalities, and where Satan has a stronghold, the outcome is always death. For that reason, I do not support surrendering of principles simply because the enemy has a great deal of determination. (Romans 2:12)

3. It is not the government’s responsibility to raise children; it is the responsibility of the parents. As I have mentioned before, the problem appears to lie in the lack of responsibility. Personally, I think that this society is making a grave mistake in handing their responsibilities over to the government, lest it become Marxist.

that there is also a big difference between executing someone who has been found guilty and executing someone who is ACTUALLY guilty. our justice system is far from foolproof, but that's an old argument and it's been done to death. (no pun intended)

i also (since it's friday and i'm feeling frisky!) have to point out that since you mention satan, let's talk about the belief in evil as it relates to abortion. you stated the phrase that everyone loves to latch onto about terminating an "innnocent human being", etc... and i wonder- if you believe in satan then how do you know that a baby is innocent before it is born?

so many arbitrary things it seems that people attribute to faith. people have long overly-romanticized the idea of babies and used it to manipulate people's emotions. it makes sense that people have to have a reason to want children otherwise the species will die out, but let's be real about things and stop using emotional pleas to make rational decisions.

To Heleva, the availability of birth control, however, has not reduced the amount of unwanted pregnancies, in fact is has increased them, as girls and women relying on the prevention of birth control are more likely to get pregnant unexpectedly. Besides, the majority of abortions are performed on adults, not horny middle school angels. For more stats on abortion, please visit these sites

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To Deduction, you have made some interesting deductions, no pun intended...

1. The significance of a human being inside the womb further increases the divide of this debate, as there are those who assume that life begins at birth, and there are those who concur that life begins inside the womb (Psalm 139:13-16)

2. Regarding evil and the fall of humankind, truthfully, we have all been deemed guilty since the beginning of time, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23) But praise God, the story of life and death does not end there, for God’s plan for humankind is redemption. And still you and I are here to choose our own destiny. For that reason, no one should have the authority to withhold the opportunity for an unborn child to choose a future of its own.

3. As for choice, I disagree that women should have to choose between their aspirations and life, as abortion has became society’s contingency plan. If truth be told, abortion is often the decision a woman makes when her back is against the wall, due to lack of resources and fear of loosing her place at school or work. In all actuality, legalized abortion has done nothing to promote change on a social level to better serve women. For instance, colleges are not induced to provide family housing and scholarships for women who are unexpectedly expecting, and many employers have no urgency to offer flexible working conditions like telecommuting and job sharing. Indeed, women now have fewer choices, not more.

I believe you are mistaking availability with access and policy. As an adult you may go and request or purchase any over the counter method you choose. However if you are a minor many regions in the USNA, purposely due to policy do not inform minors of the methods available, proper usage of products or even proper education of consequences of said methods. Which is why Oral gonorrhea rates have increased in areas were purity pledges are in vogue. The methods of prevention were available only if they had been informed and adult. Try and buy condoms in a wal-mart. They are under lock and key away from the pharmacy in a back ally of the store. They actually humiliate those who wish to purchase the birth control devices by making it as inaccessible as possible. They actually should be openly available by the diaper section and so what if they are fingered? The profit margin on contraceptives is HUGE so the loss is minimal.

BTW your links are rather biased aren't they? Care to use something from say the CDC or other disinterested parties in the debate like WHO or articles from JAMA or the Lancet?

Abortion has been available since before the Torah was written. It is commanded in the Torah that if the Mother's life is threatened by the unborn to cut it from her womb to save her. I am posting this since xtian wingnuts that create the sources such as you listed tend to ignore that in the original source material swiped for the polytheism they practise is rather succinct in that life does not begin until AFTER BIRTH.

Since you finally dropped the pretense that you were unbiased religiously I suggest you go and check out the Original Source material for what you use for your argument in the original language. Again, it is clear that life begins after birth in the Torah. This is why there are specified rituals surrounding the event. Further it is commanded that if an unborn is jeopardizing the mother's health it must be cut from her womb.

Since the majority of your argument stems from a decidedly religious view point I will remind you of the Establishment Clause of the first Amendment of the USNA Constitution. If you are establishing public policy that is based on a narrow religious conviction it in violation. Which is why I also think SSM and Poly Marriage should be legal. If you personally do not want an abortion because of your beliefs then by all means don't get one. But based on those beliefs you cannot enact laws that restrict others who do not share those beliefs from deciding to get one based on the medical advice given to them.

If you wish to have a theocratic nation that is step-toed aligned with your religious beliefs you are more than welcome to go and create one right next to the Taliban.

To Heleva,

My references come from the word of God; I do not consult the Torah because it is incomplete in historical relevance. In all actuality, righteousness does not come from religious rituals; rather it comes from Jesus Christ and faith in Him as the redeemer, not to come as the Torah accounts, but has already come “God forbid that I should boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because of that cross, my interest in this world died long ago, and the world's interest in me is also long dead. What counts is whether we really have been changed into new and different people. May God's mercy and peace be upon all those who live by this principle,” Galatians 6:14-16 That being said, the instance of which the mother’s life is in danger, reasonably, is the only justification for an abortion. By the way, such occasions, coupled with rape and incest, account for only 7% of all abortions, the other 93% occur because those pregnancies are unexpected and those children are simply unwanted.

The US Constitution, as you have mentioned, was not intended to govern society with religious or individual interpretations, thus the reason for three branches. Yet mandates made by a single branch, the judicial branch, who have abused their Constitutional duty to interpret the law with determination to write and change the law based on the momentary desires of individuals- as in the instance of Dred v Scott, Everson v the Board of Education, Engel v Vital, the Board of Education of KJV School District v Grumet, and Roe v Wade, to name a few- were not processed properly through legislation. (For a basic illustration on the proper process of amending the Constitution and activating new laws, see <link> and scroll down to The Development of the Constitution) By the way “judicial review” was neither written in the constitution, but instead the result of Supreme Court ruling in Marbury v Madison, pretty convenient, I’ll say. Legislation of Roe v Wade, therefore, was not given the proper procedure, as written in the Constitution, and is not only to be considered unconstitutional, but should be overturned, regardless of how pleasing or popular it may be. "If, in the opinion of the people, the distribution or the modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates. But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed." – George Washington, 1796 Farewell Address.

These days, condoms are passed out for free in schools and clinics all over the country. Access to birth control, although seemingly logical, has been futile; as I have stated before, abortion prevails because of unexpected pregnancies, and birth control only increases the possibility of an unexpected pregnancy. Sure Planned Parenthood (PPFA) and Guttmatcher (AGI) have all of society convinced that birth control is the solution, but it would behoove us to investigate the motivation behind their claims. For instance, PPFA makes a lot of money off of teen promiscuity, and findings of the AGI substantiate a partnership with PPFA.

- “After the clinics are opened, operators work to build the trust, confidence and familiarity of the community. Then they present “data” on the need of reproductive health services, such as contraceptives. “As these centers become more established, they gain community support and a buy-in from parents,” said John Schlitt, NASBHC’s executive director, in The Guttmacher Report”

- Even more so, since schools and health centers have increasingly become a substitution for parental involvement, especially in urban communities, these facilities operate to promote social stratification “a calculated, pernicious effort to destroy the very fabric of family life among black parents and their children.” Rev. Hiram Crawford

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There is a growing trend, however, to promote education in favor of abstinence; although these programs are relatively new, they have been working and probably provide a much better solution than birth control.

you make a lot of assumptions based on spurious facts, kustomlady.

you claim: abortion is often the decision a woman makes when her back is against the wall, due to lack of resources and fear of loosing her place at school or work.

and you know this how? i've seen plenty of poor women with many babies. i seriously doubt this claim. frankly, it seems that a lot of people with little to no resources have multiple babies.

i see no reason to NOT believe that if you educate people about stds and pregnancy and you teach them how to not end up in a situation where a pregnancy is unwanted, that you wouldn't reduce the number of abortions. and you have not suggested anything that would. you mention education. but what would your education be if not about birth control? and what about making birth control easier to afford and easier to get?

people who speak about how "easy" it is to get probably haven't been broke, or not had medical insurance and are most likely speaking from their own anecdotal experience which could be limited. and every place is different. i visited a free clinic in a more rural area that didn't have too long of a wait and they would hook you up with extremely cheap birth control and free condoms. i went to a free clinic in a more metropolitan area that had a huge wait time so that you would have to basically take off an entire day of work or school just to acquire what you need. this was in a different state, too, so their pricing may have been different as well.

look, personally, i have many reasons why i wouldn't want to have an abortion. so i take steps to make sure that nothing 'unexpected' happens. but if for some reason, with all the precautions i take, i ended up pregnant- i would want the choice to not have the baby. and i don't see how what i would do has to do with what you would do.

but i also don't belong to a religious group that entitles me to stick my nose in other people's business. apparently, you do. i'm quite willing to take God's judgment. why aren't you willing to let God give it? if your faith is so strong, then why do you feel a need to be involved? Don't you think if God is so upset about the issue that he can handle it without you and others like you? What gives you people the right to dictate others actions? I'm sure you wouldn't like it if someone did it to you.