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Don't taze me, Doc!
by BSG-075

I recommend The Terminal Man, an older Michael Chrichton novel, to those interested in this subject. It was made into a film also, but I have not seen it. The book poses some interesting ethical and philosophical questions about the enterprise of managing the mind with wires and shocks.

Then again, it is fascinating research that could really help people. I took zoloft for 2 years, and stopped when I thought it wasn't doing any good anymore. Curing depression with a zap. Could it also turn off my drinking problem, or on again as appropriate to the occasion? Smoking (not one of my vices)? Food craving? Sounds like a public health bonanza.

Could it make me an extrovert? Not that I would want that, but society might decide that was for the best. Could I be made to smile and say only positive things? Back to the ethics, then. If you think it couldn't happen that way, you are mistaken.

Re: Don't taze me, Doc!
by CrookedCubed
This is yet another band-aid solution - one that, as you point out, comes with ethics issues more serious than any we've faced. The one and only cure for depression is a change in attitude. Medical intervention cannot accomplish that, and talk therapy doesn't always either. The simple fact is that psychology/psychiatry/psychoan­alysis will not work for everyone. It's a shame that people have bought into the idea that those fields are the only source of help for mental/emotional problems.
Re: Don't taze me, Doc!
by devizier
Are there ethical issues with using a defibrillator to depolarize your heart? What difference does it make whether you use electrical shocks or pharmaceuticals to manage psychological disorders? These disorders are very real as is the need for proper management.
Re: Don't taze me, Doc!
by smoke

If the procedure permanently (or semi permanently) alters brain function then this is not a band-aid. Is using this procedure OK for Parkinson's patients? If it's OK for Parkinson's why is it not OK for depression?

This certainly is not the most serious ethical issue we have faced in medicine. Off the top of my head (no pun intended) organ transplantation comes to mind. Although now it is currently well accepted when physicians first started experimenting in this area the "general public" REALLY flipped out.

So what do you suggest for people who are depressed if psychotherapy, etc does not work? Just suffer? "Change in attitude" might work for situational/transient depression but not for more serious forms of depression. I feel bad for your family, spouse, kids, friends, etc because it appears to me that if they ever were clinically depressed the only support you would give them is essentially "suck it up".

Re: Don't taze me, Doc!
by CrookedCubed

It isn't a cure for Parkinson's either, just a management tool. If the implant should stop functioning for some reason, the symptoms would come right back. For a permanent condition such as Parkinson's, masking the symptoms, by whatever means, is only humane. But depression is not permanent. This implant would do patients a disservice by keeping them reliant on a medical aid instead of putting them in a position where they could actually solve their problems and become a happier person in the end as a result (which I did, by the way. Without ever entering a therapist's office).


This is indeed the most serious ethical issue in mental-health (organ transplants have nothing to do with mental illness). Antidepressant drugs can always be halted, and even the effects of electroshock therapy wear off after a time. This implant would be permanent, and it might alter the patient's mental state enough that they would be unable to objectively assess whether they wanted to keep it or not. As the top poster said, it could also be used for unethical reasons.

Re: Don't taze me, Doc!
by cal1

To the people worried about this being imposed on you for thinking outside the norm, or having VNS used for unethical reasons, you must have never had this treatment recommended for you, or tried to get it for yourself or a loved one, or you'd realize how laughable that idea is. The reality is that this treatment is very difficult to obtain. The chance of 'the man' forcing on you is pretty unlikely since even the people who need and want it have trouble getting it. It's very expensive, and installation is an invasive procedure. Insurance companies are rarely willing to pay for it without extensive appeals, and doctors won't even consider you for it unless you have severe symptoms and have a documented history of failing to respond to other treatments. Most doctors won't recommend it without being prompted, as it's still pretty new. Patients who get it, usually research it themselves, press their doctor for it, and sometimes take out loans or second mortgages to pay for it because their insurance company won't pay, or is dragging out lengthy appeals.

Depression is usually not permenant, that's true. But dysthymia, bipolar disorder and some other conditions can be. Depression can also be recurrent. I first had issues with major depression when I was 4 (yes, really - I went to the hospital for it and everything). I'm 36 now, and although I've had some windows of time where things went well, I've suffered episodes my whole life. I'm working on the attitude change part, I don't think you're wrong is suggesting that. But sometimes that's pretty hard to do, and sometimes it's not enough. As far as solving your problems, well, sometimes people have problems that can't be solved. And depression may not be permenant, but suicide is. My best friend took his own life a few years ago. I wish this treatment had been available to him. Would it have done him a 'disservice' if it helped him see through the fog of depression, and make the difficult choice to live? Everyone deserves to recover from the depression. And as I define it, 'recovery' means the remission of symptoms, and a chance at having your life back. However one achieves that is fine with me. Getting there with thoughts is great, and I'm happy you were able to do that. But that doesn't always work for everyone. Revovering via therapy, or meds, or VNS is no less real if it gets you your life back. That you did it without going to a doctor is great, but it doesn't entitle you to look down upon others who aren't so fortunate.

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