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again, the confusion
by Freddie
+8/-1 Reply

I think Mr. Saletan has made some important points here. This discussion underlines a common tactic of the in the abortion debate: one side asserting that their beliefs are scientifically confirmed, that they are merely making a scientific claim when, in fact, they are making a moral or philosophical claim. "Science tells us that life beings at x", therefore, the speaker's beliefs are sacrosanct. But it always ends up as another disputable belief claim. People try to leverage their opinions with the supposed irrefutability of science; but the consequences of any scientific claim is a matter of philosophy.

I'm surprised Saletan didn't point out that, however much what these authors say may be scientifically true, science cannot make any prescriptive claims. Consider this:

What makes you a human being, they argue, isn't a soul, but "a developmental program (including both its DNA and epigenetic factors) oriented toward developing a brain and central nervous system." They believe that this program starts at conception, and therefore, so does personhood.

Is the fact of a developmental program that is oriented towards developing a brain and central nervous system something that can be scientifically, experimentally tested? Yes. Is the belief that this program begins at conception something that can be scientifically, experimentally tested? Yes. Does science assert any particular moral consequences from those facts? No! "[A]nd therefore, so does personhood" is a claim that has no scientific value; it is a purely philosophical claim. Like any other disagreement about abortion-- or any other moral or ethical dispute-- we are left merely with competing philosophical claims, and, as usual, one side claiming that "it is perfectly obvious that...." These two researchers are no different from any one else engaging in the abortion debate, save that they are trying the worn out tactic of asserting that their position has the "certainty of science."

Science cannot solve our moral disputes. I'm sorry. There is no Ten Commandments hidden in our DNA, no "fundamental, real morality" to be deduced from a GUT. Those who claim otherwise are either arguing in bad faith, as these two are, or are simply unable to deal with the fact that we will always be trapped in the muddle.

Re: again, the confusion
by drzamzow

you are absolutely right about the notion of science and philosophy being separate issues. however, one needs the objectivity of science to create a definition in order to construct a reasoned philosophical argument.

you have admitted that science does indeed declare the embryo to be an individual that is alive and developing. now that we have that established we can now turn to the philosophy of the argument. we have established that the embryo is an individual , therefore an abortion is the termination of an individual. our laws and culture dictate that the deliberate, unjustified termination of life is wrong.

my problem with those i have argued with over this subject is the fact that they don't wish to be the bad guy. therefore they do this silly tap dance around basic biology by declaring the embryo "not alive" or "not an individual". these are subjective philosophical terms which change with the individual. what i would find more honest is if they would admit that the embryo is being terminated because it has no worth.

Re: again, the confusion
by wayhey1

You missed the point. Science simply can't support any moral claim of "individuality." Any association to an individual (a moral unit) is always an assumption, no matter what line you want to draw.

The abortion challenges
by Larry

The ones I prefer are

a) (as in this discussion) When does life begin?

b) How many women are you willing to see killed or maimed if abortion is treated as murder?

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