Like many pro-choice folk, I have little difficulty talking about the complexity of abortion. Is the fetus a person? When does it become a person? What of the protection of the potentiality inherent in a fetus? And, of course, the moral complexity concerns not just the status of the fetus, but also the status of the woman. What is she willing to do or put up with either to continue or to terminate a pregnancy? Given that she bears the burden of pregnancy, what is her responsibility in preventing any unwanted pregnancy? Does a woman in fact bear a greater responsibility (however unfairly) for birth control? And what is her relationship to the fetus?

The difficulty, however, is in finding someone who is pro-life with whom I could have a conversation about this issue. In high school I had a friend who was strongly pro-life, but also in favor of contraception. Furthermore, while she held to her pro-life beliefs (based on her belief that the fetus is a person), she also worried about the woman, and wondered if a law banning abortion was, in fact the best way to deal with what she saw as the complexities surrounding abortion. I would guess that today there are any number of men and women whose views track with those of that high school friend. Where are you? How can we speak to one another?

Unfortunately, I don't see a similar recognition of the complexities of sex, reproduction, birth control, and abortion on the part of pro-life leadership. Where are the pro-life leaders who push strongly for broad access to contraception? Where are the pro-life leaders who will speak about sexuality as a facet---and fact---of human life rather than as something which requires the bonds of marriage to cleanse it of its sin? Where are the pro-life leaders who are willing to recognize that a woman who chooses an abortion is neither a dupe of the so-called abortion industry or victim of some unscrupulous doctor? Where are the pro-life leaders who are willing to recognize that women do have a role in determining what happens to their bodies, their futures, and their lives?

Oh, and could we talk about abortion without having our doubts and ponderings taken by the other side (whichever side) as proof of the superiority of their own position? To do so would require a trust which our near-zero-sum legal framing of this issue makes almost impossible.

Mr. Saletan wants pro-choice leaders to speak 'the truth' about abortion (as if there were only one 'truth'). I am a leader of no one and nothing, but here's my truth: However much I'm willing to engage the moralities of this issue, I am terrified that the government will turn my body against me. That fear, too, is a truth which requires recognition.

The "pro life" leaders that are willing to talk about contraception, pre-natal and neo-natla care etc, are few and far between. Why? Because its not about "pro-life" Its about "anti-sex" and "anti-choice". Keenan's rhetoric that I critized elsewhere, is an indicator of how succesful the anti-choice message has gotten. Even Keenan has to deny a 15yo legitimacy to chose to have sex. Because at the end of the day, this discussion is about trying to recreate Ozze and Harriet.

Hence the frustration.

I try to give the benefit of the doubt to those on the pro-life side, in large part because I'm not at all sure that the leadership of pro-life organizations adequately represent the multiplicity of views of those who consider themselves pro-life.

That said, I can get screamingly frustrated with those leaders---such as the woman who led the effort to ban abortion in South Dakota---who are so certain that they and they alone know what sex is and what it's for and that they and they alone should determine for every other man and woman how to have sex and when to have sex and how to deal with the consequences of sex. At my most intemperate I have shouted (in my apartment) that pro-life leaders care less about protecting life than in controlling women.

Unfair, perhaps, but I rarely see any sort of real concern about women, beyond either condescension or condemnation.

As far as teenagers having sex, well, I do think 15 is too young for intercourse, tho' not for fooling around. ('Bring back groping!' Think that'll work as a sex-ed slogan?) But I'm a long way from 15, and I doubt the harrumphings of an old crank like me will do much to deter any teen from going at it. Because, as someone (you?) pointed out to another old crank, sex is fun. Whatever else we may lard on to the meaning and purpose of sex, it's also quite a fine way to pass some time. And pleasure, too, is a moral good.

Heroin and crack use must be extremely positive moral acts then.

That pleasure is also a good does not mean it is the only good. There are, of course, other issues involved---duh, complexity.

And as for heroin and crack, is the problem the pleasure users derive from these substances, or the problems attendant upon that use?

My point is not that since pleasure is a good, it trumps all other goods and concerns. Rather, that as a good, it deserves to be taken into consideration.

Even if you don't think pleasure is a good, well, that many, many people find sex pleasurable means that for pragmatic reasons, it makes sense to include pleasure in discussions of sex---or drugs, for that matter.

I can get screamingly frustrated with those leaders---such as the woman who led the effort to ban abortion in South Dakota---who are so certain that they and they alone know what sex is and what it's for and that they and they alone should determine for every other man and woman how to have sex and when to have sex and how to deal with the consequences of sex.

Not least because, usually, men are left out of these diatribes about the burden of correct behavior and responsibility. It's all about what the woman "ought" to be doing or not doing.

It's good to think complexly, Scavenger.

Scavenger wrote:

Mr. Saletan wants pro-choice leaders to speak 'the truth' about abortion (as if there were only one 'truth'). I am a leader of no one and nothing, but here's my truth: However much I'm willing to engage the moralities of this issue, I am terrified that the government will turn my body against me. That fear, too, is a truth which requires recognition.

================

CaliforniaDreamin responds:

What on earth is "turn my body against me" supposed to mean?

30,000,000+ innocent, unborn babies have been butchered since Norma McCorvey lied that she had been raped.
Legalized abortion in America began with a lie, and is promoted and sustained with more and more lies.

One of those lies is: "Keep your hands off my body."

In fact, nobody who speaks out on behalf of helpless, innocent babies wants to touch any pregnant mother.
We just want abortion doctors to keep their instruments off of babies bodies.

The next lie is that poverty somehow justifies killing unborn babies. How many of us were born into poverty and are doing quite nicely today, thank you very much. I am, for one.

Do the same promoters of abortion who attempt to justify killing babies in the name of poverty ever suggest killing poor people alive today? How is one different from the other?

The next lie is that some mothers will abuse their children.

Do the same promoters of abortion who attempt to justify killing babies in the name of potential child abuse ever suggest killing abused children alive today? How is one different from the other?

Finally, the very euphemism created by the abortion lobby is a lie. The baby has absolutely no "choice," and neither does its father. He may have to pay child support for 18 years. Or he may never see his own flesh and blood. Scavenger will not be eager to discuss these moral issues.

funny how the people on the pro-death side, or chose death side,whatever owe their stand to a female who lied about being raped, then changed her mind and joined the pro-life or chose life side...

Nice Strawmen.

First off, you are perfectly within your rights to try and convince a woman to carry to term. The gotcha is that you cannot COMPELL her to do so involutnarily. Why? Because the Constitution specifically prohibits involuntary servitude.

And unless you are going to say that carrying to term has no value and hence is not a service - either to the fetus or to society at large - then you cannot make someone unconvicted of a crime, to provide that service involuntarily.

And before you make the arguement that the agreement was given in the act of voluntarily engaging in sex, that sort of Strict Liability arguement still doesn't get you around Amendment 13, because any service agreement can be withdrawn at any moment. The only recourse in such a situation is a tort claim, but that cannot compel servitude.

So the liar here is you

1. plenty of people pretend to speak on behalf of fetuses - often without any actual information to support them
2. No one suggests that abortions are necessary for poor people.
3. And "choice" has to do with the right of a person to do what they will with THEIR OWN body. The father can do what he wants with his body. And the fetus can do what it wants with its body.

So when you stop throwing up strawmen - which essentially are lies, perhaps you can engage in a reasonable discussion

Nothing particularly funny about it. Most women experience sexual assault or significant harrassment at some point in their lives.

And?

pleasure is good in the right place......

Jer 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,……………

Lu 1:41 - And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

So, Mr. Holier-Than-Thou, how much prison time should I get for having an abortion? Answer, please.

And if you really, truly cannot see the difference between an abortion and homicide of a child, you are an absolute and total waste of natural resources.

What about this religious text - explain why I should believe yours and not theirs or vice versa. No fair invoking circular reasoning about how God is superior

I know the Christian Church thrives on hypocrisy, and that man's carnal nature will out!