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high school= Intelligence?
by patron002
Most people that drop out of high school do so for economic reasons, not because they are particularly dumb. Many people on this site have attacked IQ tests as worthless, but your really willing to pretend a high school degree means something? A high school diploma has become perfectly worthless when it comes to judging someones character or intelligence. As far as the class issues go, as long as the the Army is volunteer, and as long as it offers money to recruits, more people from the "disadvantaged" or "lower" classes will always be recruited. Free college and a decent salary just doesn't appeal to most trust fund kids. The only way to make it so the army doesn't have more poor people than rich people is to have some sort of plan where everyone does some time in the military. As far as the dropping out of the military early line goes, its probably right, but there is no real way to judge when somebody will drop out. Bottomline, being from the lower classes doesn't make you dumb, coming from a liberal website, I find it funny, that your essentially saying the army is failing because its hiring dumb people, who are the poor people, which most people admit, aren't dumb, but have had poor circumstances, either way, at the very least the author is a snob. Maybe worst.
Re: high school= Intelligence?
by MajorGrippy

We're not dealing with soldiers on the individual level here, but a population substantial enough that the sorts of statistics measured in tests like these (while they may not categorically declare all members 'dumber') do represent an overall reduction in quality of recruits, if not in the case of every individual.

And yes, while it's certainly true that there are plenty of reasons why one might not achieve a high school diploma other than simply lacking the intellect - in fact, I think we can all agree that even people generally looked down on as 'dumb' by their higher-testing peers can succeed at high school with enough honest effort, sometimes even excelling - these reasons might actually be of more concern for the military than simple lack of testable IQ.

While certainly, there are those who fail to get a diploma for economic reasons, there are plenty of ways (to my knowledge, the Army is very good about facilitating these) for a capable individual to gain one or the equivalent down the road. As such, a lack of a diploma - while not a universal indicator of unsuitability - would at least across a broad population potentially represent any number of problems - poor intelligence, inadequate learning ability, lack of discipline, lack of motivation, potentially crippling personal or
social problems, etc - that the Army shouldn't really be faulted for wanting to avoid.


Re: high school= Intelligence?
by dberne

I would not be sure that economics is the main reason for dropping out. In the long run, a high school diploma translates into greater earning potential for most people, A high school diploma is probably a good stand-in for a person"s willingness to stay in trying circumstances for the sake of a long term gain, rather than bail out for a short term goal. Which strikes me as being very similar to the problems of the military retention. Objectively, a GED tests similar knowledge as a high school education minimally requires. But as I pointed out to my own kids once, high school kind of sucks for everyone. It's not so much a test of intelligence but of aptitude - can you deal with the bureaucracy and sheer dumbness of some of your peers and instructors as preparation for dealing with coworkers, bosses, customers, etc?

Looked at in that light, a diploma actually does a reasonable good job as a proxy for one's aptitude to stay with a commitment to the military.

Re: high school= Intelligence?
by Liberal Patriot
I would recommend reinstating the draft for high school grads and drop outs. Drop outs would remain in boot camp until they pass a GED or an Army Skills Equivalency Test acceptable by civilian standards. I would feel a lot more secure and confident in my country if the citizenry were predominantly veterans. I believe they would be a bit more discerning in selecting their representatives and presidents [no AWOL Deserters, thank you Mr. Bush] and bit more vocal and demanding of the leadership when war may be a possiblility in the future.
Re: high school= Intelligence?
by blueskies

Lets see. In my experience,often its not intelligence, but hormones, or circumstances, that prevent graduting from HS. Sometimes it is intelligence. Having a HS diploma usully means you have some minimum intelligence though not always. So I think useing a HS diploma as a mass screening tool is valid, bearing in mind maybe 20% don't fit the standard box.

"clear, nuanced, and empathetic appreciation of the essential nature of the conflict," an "understanding of the motivation, strengths, and weaknesses of the insurgent," rudimentary knowledge of the local culture"

Only volunteers could do it. Draftees have no motivation.

Re: high school= Intelligence?
by quillsinister

You know, I used to think that, too. Then I realized that Heinlein wrote Starship Troopers as satire. ;-)

Besides, for reasons I cannot even begin to explain, the military turned out for Bush in droves. Your ideas, well-intentioned as they may be, have not been validated by recent events.

That aside, I still believe strongly in the citizen-warrior-scholar ethos, and have tried to live as such. As for long-term solutions, though, I'd feel better if Americans could get at least a remedial knowledge of political science during their educational years, since it is a subject of which they are woefully ignorant--especially for citizens of a republic. I think that would be a better method of ensuring the American people have the wherewithal to not vote for people like Bush in the future.

Re: high school= Intelligence?
by blueskies

"I would not be sure that economics is the main reason for dropping out. In the long run, a high school diploma translates into greater earning potential for most people"

Sometimes it is. I know one, he preety much was expected and had to support himself from the age of 14 on, as various disasters hit his family. He was not allowed to graduate because he could only attend part time (working full time) even though his GPA was adaquate, and was not allowed to continoue attending after his 18th birthday. However he scored in the high 90's across the board in all appitude tests.

It's all about motivation
by Trebuchet

The minimum motivation you can expect from someone is to continue an education that is provided for free and is conducted during a time in your life that you can not be reasonably occupied in any other fashion.

I was one of the last of the draft era inductees. They were minimizing requirements for volunteers in the army in order to prove they could do without the draft.

The difference between the few draftees and the all volunteer army during that period was dramatic to say the least. Nearly half of the soldiers in my battalion did not complete their full enlistment, but not one of those were Regular Army.

Re: high school= Intelligence?
by DTaggart
it disturbs me that rather than letting him fail, no one bothered to call child services.
Re: It's all about motivation
by Bobarian

You are absolutely right. The author mashed together statistics. The ASVAB scores for non-high school diploma grads who are recruited are significantly higher than the scores of graduates. Nearly all non-grads have GEDs and have to score above 50%ile on the AFQT.

Their numbers are tracked and limited because their motivation is in question, not their intelligence.

Re: high school= Intelligence?
by JoeBoomer

Why do you think Starship Troopers was satire? Heinlein's opposition to the draft was apparent in much of his fiction, and he said the same thing in his non-fiction writing and a number of speeches. Or am I misunderstanding what you thought he was satirizing?

Boomer

Re: high school= Intelligence?
by patron002
I'll bite, high school may in some ways be more of a test of willingness to finish something than a test of IQ. In that light the argument makes more sense, although I still say theres a fairly decent percent of people without a diploma that had to start working early in life, for various reasons, rather than laziness or stupidity. That said, there would be no easy way to distinguish between the two groups so I can understand the preference to keep most of them out for quality reasons. Surely they could check into high school records, and work records to figure out what was going on (also ask the candidate) and make the decision on an individual basis. ( Also as one poster pointed out, the Army usually gives ample opportunity to get a GED.)
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