I lived for a few years in Europe and I immediately recognized the phenomenon Anne is referring to. I don't mean to gloss over America's racial problems (and we've certainly exhibited them to the rest of the world plenty), but, in talking to the French, English, etc, I often found myself wanting to tell people bluntly: "Look, you know next to nothing about race in America". It's very easy to pass of cynicism as thoughtfulness, when you actually know little about a topic. After all, you can easily get called out for being naively optimistic, but rarely for being naively cynical. The Brit who did not seem to realize how white Iowa is is a case in point. Whenever I found myself discussing the South with Europeans (and I'm a Northerner) I would invariably have to point out that African Americans are moving in huge numbers to the South, which comes as an utter shock to most Europeans.

yep. Well, we can't blame Europeans. They watch our movies and listen to our music which paints a certain picture...

Not to mention how annoying those assumptions are given that I haven't seen a non-white Prime Minister of the UK, President of France, Chancellor of Germany, etc. (though at least some European countries have had female elected leaders)

bsharpoflat -

Well, here's an idea - we could expect Europeans to grasp that you don't understand a society just from watching movies and listening to pop music. They are grown ups, they can figure that out. Would you expect to have much insight into japanese society based on anime and godzilla?

Ummm... Not exactly.

First of all, "Europeans" tend to know a great deal more about the US than Americans know about Europe... a ridiculous amount more, actually. The fact that Americans tend to lump them all together as "Europeans" suggests that they know very little about the various countries and cultures that make up the EU. There is sooooo little in common between a German and a Frenchman that it makes comparing a Californian and a Texan seem like a joke.... and Germany & France actually share a border. Along the Rhine and in the Alsace in places like Strassbourg there is considerable crossover, but to lump Portugese from Algarve in the same category as Finnish Laplanders is laughable at best.

Secondly, America is still a very racist country... and so are many European countries. Openly racist politicians from the far right have been making huge gains all across the region for quite some time now. From Holland's Pim Fortuyn List to Switzerland's SVP leader Blocher... from Austria to France, Italy to Denmark racism, xenophobia, and nationalism have been on the rise in Europe for over a decade. These countries had fairly liberal immigration policies that began to dilute their precious national identities, and the backlash has been in full effect since the mid 90's. Furthermore, the colonial countries still have lingering prejudices from their empire days. It is only natural that they identify with America's historical problems with multiculturalism and race.

Third, Europeans tend to encounter a very specific segment of the American demographic... namely that of the moderately well-heeled, slightly provincial, "ugly American" tourist. Of course they sometimes see the more sophisticated "jet-setters," and they see loads of bright-eyed young "backpackers," but all three of these groups represent a very sheltered, lilly-white version of the US. Aside from the constant flux of entertainers, musicians, DJs, and artists, most Europeans don't really get to see any authentic urban type Americans... let alone any truly poor country folk, trailer-trash, or ghetto hood-rats. Their understanding of our social dynamic comes primarily from our TV, Film, and Music... and our foreign policy. So, whatever their view of us is... we gave it to them.

I think it is fairly arrogant for Americans to berate Europeans for assuming that we are a racist country based on our own recent history, the face we show to the world, and our portrayal of ourselves in our media... when less than 10% of Americans have even the slightest clue where Andorra is or what language is spoken in Luxembourg. Hell, most Americans don't even know that we call places by names that they don't use themselves... like: that there isn't actually a country called Germany! (They call it Deutchland... no Bavaria, that's Bayern... no Spain either, that is España etc. etc.) And then we get haughty that they don't know current migration trends among African-Americans?

Please. After all, it's only been just over 40 years since lynching blacks was a fairly common occurrence in the good ol' US of A...

JahSun, you are spot on re spot on about Europeans.

Frankly, the American culture, for many reasons, not just racism, is more appalling to me everyday and I AM an American, so I can only imagine it must appear to any one who hasn't lived here.

I can't say I lived in all of Europe but I did live in Italy for more than a few years. I think it's important to separate the prejudice of some from saying all are prejudiced or becoming prejudiced.

The Italian families I knew (some I still know) contained racially blended marriages and no one seemed to mind. Like Americans, Italians resented immigrants that don't assimilate but when they inter-married and accepted the culture I noted no sign of prejudice.

I have family in Great Britian and they were quite outspoken about their fear of losing their Englishness. I noted a lot more prejudice there.

So, I think Americans have as many misconceptions about Europeans as Europeans have about America.

sez who?

I found your comment nicely balanced. I'm Black and lived in Madrid, Spain for four years. I had some great Spanish (white) friends and was treated the same as anyone. Oddly, I went to a Real Madrid soccer match and these same friends joined in the monkey or ape sounds made when a player of African descent from the opposing team touched the ball.

I never really knew what to think except that I once caught myself mentally shaking my head when I saw some Spaniards embarassing themselves on the dance floor.

JahSun,

You are entitled to your opinion but I would ask that you not lecture me based on simplistic assumptions about what Americans think. There are so many misconceptions in your post that I was debating whether to even get into this but I think I have to respond.

For starters, I have lived in Europe for close to three years (not counting several shorter trips) in three different countries (France, England, and the Netherlands) and have visited almost every country in Western Europe. In fact, I also have dual nationality (USA/Germany). So my views are based on a fair bit of firsthand experience.

You have completely missed (ignored?) the point about "Europeans". Yes, we all know there are large differences across the continent (I think most Americans are at least aware they fought a big war 65 years ago!). But it is also not unusual, in any country, to hear people make bold claims about American society based on shaky knowledge. Anne's example of the British guy telling her Americans will never vote for a black president is a case in point. I've heard these kinds of comments on several occasions. I've had more than one European tell me that "all Americans descended from Europeans". And yes, when people talk about race in America, issues like black migration to the south are relevant.

Which brings up another thing - I certainly agree that Europeans know more about America than Americans know about Europe. But when you say they know "a ridiculous amount more" I have to ask - have you talked to a broad range of Europeans? In my experience, Europeans know a lot about America, but they also tend to think they know more about America than they really do. Among other things, I've met Europeans who thought Chicago was on the West Coast and that Boston was in the Confederacy in the Civil War.

As for racism - it surely exists in both places, but a black president is -much- more plausible in the US than in any European country I've seen. When I came back from France I remember being struck by the sight of black commentators at the Super Bowl, as I had become so conditioned to only seeing white faces on French TV. More importantly, the nature of racism in America is in many ways indigenous, and it is quite different from racism in Europe. If you disagree with that, I'm sorry, but I think you do not understand Europe well. There is a much, much stronger sense in many European countries of the country as being a "homeland" to the whites, based on millenia of history and culture. It's a very different climate and quite frankly I do not think Europeans can quite easily identify with America's racial issues.

Your examples of American ignorance seem to me to be off base. Andorra and Luxembourg are tiny places. In my experience, most Europeans could probably not locate , say, Michigan or Delaware on a map. (not to mention Laos, or Bolivia). But somehow there is this expectation that everyone in the world of any culture must know all about Europe. I had a Dutch friend who complained that Americans thought the Netherlands was a part of Germany. Yet I later heard him say that as far as he's concerned "anything east of Utrecht is Germany". I'm sorry but this is a double standard. I may be a proud New Englander but I would not get upset if foreigners thought NY was in New England.

Well, I've probably vented enough but I guess I have to make my point again - Europeans (the adult ones) are adults - they're smart enough to understand that any society is deeper than what you see in pop culture. Sorry, we don't "give them" their opinions, they choose what to believe, and thinking that MTV and Hollywood make you an expert on America is rubbish. Americans who think they understand countries they've never visited based on movies, etc. should be regarded as ignorant by intelligent people. I hold Europeans to the same standard.

You seem to have totally missed my point.

Nonetheless, I will say this. I have been going to Europe for over 25 years, and have spent at least 10 years solid on the continent. I was engaged to a Dutch woman, and have lived in 5 Dutch cities... including Ütrecht. I have a year round vacation house in the Alps, and I have visited every country in Europe... every single one... including Eastern Europe and Turkey. So, please do not tell me that I don't know Europe. I can speak 4 European languages... two of them fluently. I am even familiar with dialects and sub-language groups.

None of this is even necessary though, in order to recognize that Europeans are better educated than the average American. Their "high school" gives them at least a junior college level education (even the lowest of their 3 track system). They tend to know geography, and follow foreign politics and affairs. And, yes, they are very nationalistic. And, this does tend to translate into racism, but it is rooted in xenophobia... and an attempt to preserve their sense of national identity. As you hinted at, the Dutch are as afraid of Germans taking over their culture as they are of Morrocans, Surinamese, and Turks. Thus, the race situation in the US is viewed through their lens of nationalism.

I really hate to generalize about whole groups of people. Anything one says about 300 million folks is bound to be wrong for a substantial number of them. The anti-foreigner swing in their zeitgeist is obvious from the political elections they've held in the past decade or so, though. France came fairly close to electing Le Pen, Blocher was in the Bundesrat for a while, Haider, Fortuyn... if you follow European politics, there is no denying this.

The one thing that Europe has trouble getting its head around when looking at the US brand of race relations, is the fact that our issue has its roots in slavery and that the African-Americans here (Obama aside) tend to have been here for hundreds of years... and that they are not newcomers scurrying here from poorer nations to ride on the achievements of an already rich nation and feed off of the generous social services thus provided. This is an unfair assessment of the minorities in Europe as well, but decades of asylum seekers, former colonials, and enterprising easterners have given this impression. In the US, this may be the view ascribed to Mexican immigrants, but our "race problem" goes much, much deeper. We only took 51% of Mexico during the Mexican-American war, after all. And let's not even get into the Native American situation...

We may in fact have the fortitude as a nation to elect a black man to the highest office. This is not likely to occur in Europe any time soon, either. But.... and this is a big but... European white supremacists are not nearly as virulent or hateful as their US counterparts. Klansmen, neo-nazis and such types are still a large and motivated group in the US. (just look at any forum or blog on the net that discusses race) European skinheads, and nazi punks tend to hate everyone, but mostly get rowdy at football games, and with other skinheads... the anti-fascist ones who like to fight with them. You have your anti-semitism, and anti-muslim sentiments... occasionally synagogues and mosques will get defaced. But the fact remains that a black man can walk without fear in just about every neighborhood of every single city in Europe... at 2am. This is not true in the US. Try getting a beer at a biker bar flying the confederate flag just before closing time dressed ghetto chic...

Furthermore, shopkeepers, hospitality workers, and service professionals in Europe tend to be polite to strangers, dark faces, and freaks in general even if they hate your guts. In the US, even people who aren't violently opposed to you will often treat you like dirt. Black men are routinely followed around stores, sneered at, and spoken to without an ounce of politeness or respect. I can say from experience that it is far more pleasant to be disliked politely, than to be in a society where wretched treatment is common place even among people who might have a number of minority friends. The largest example of this would be in police treatment and racial profiling. Even in European countries where a dark face sticks out like a sore thumb, one is only moderately more likely to be pulled over, harassed or asked for ID than the locals. And, when being singled out or harassed, they certainly will be polite and even courteous as they assess your situation. In the US, however, minorities are as likely as not to have the fairly regular experience of police approaching them with bright lights in their faces and guns pointed at their heads. And black cops can be more prejudiced than their white buddies! If you don't appreciate the difference between a kurt "Ausweis bitte." and "Freeze, G*D dammit... keep your hands where I can see them." then you are a privileged member of society and you probably don't realize that you have no business commenting on racism in the US.

Call my assumptions simplistic if you like. They are not baseless guesswork, though, but comments made from a lengthy and profound experience. Your original post was rather simplistic in my view. Still, I don't necessarily disagree with you... I just think you need to keep this in perspective. Europeans do know a lot about the US. Most of them know the top 5 candidates for president in both parties. Most of them can tell what part of the country you are from based on your accent. Most of them identify with some cultural trends and styles that originate from the US... even if they get it wrong sometimes, like the hordes of European hip-hop fans who miss "some" of the nuances of the lyrics they repeat ad nauseum.

Joe six-pack American, on the other hand, hasn't a clue about Europe. Forget Luxembourg... most Americans are hard pressed to name a French city outside of Paris. Most Americans think Oxford is in New England... if they've even heard of it. Most Americans, think Sweden is Switzerland... even the ones who are traveling in Europe are often totally clueless. They look out the train window with their Eurail ticket tucked into their Lonely Planet guide, and wonder "What country are we in now? Czech? Do they still speak German here?" Americans travel the world assuming that everyone will speak English. And, as ignorant as Americans are about Europe, they are infinitely more so about the rest of the globe. Europeans are a nationalistic, conservative bunch (with notable exceptions), but they are far more worldly than Americans. There is simply no denying this.

Americans, on the other hand, get their ideas about Europe from John Wayne WWII movies, and PBS documentaries. Most Americans have never even seen a European film... and even when we adopt TV shows from England... we redo them with American casts and dialogue because the average American can't relate to England (The Office or Life on Mars anyone?). At least they watch our movies!

My other posted reply to you is quite long, so I will refrain from repeating myself. But I will ask, who in America has any insight into Japanese society without living adjacent to Little Tokyo or having studied Karate with a Japanese sensei? I'd say for the typical American, The Last Samurai was the definitive statement... and people could only relate to it because Tom Cruise was playing an American who went there and beat them at their own game.

Seems to me JahSun is treating Americans in general the way he thinks Americans treat others. Maybe JahSun is American? If not your biased, stereotyped posts would appear to have qualified you for honorary citizenship.

I am American. And, I said that I hate to generalize about any group of 300 million people... be they US or EU or AU or whatever. Perhaps you haven't read all of my posts on this thread? Or maybe you just didn't catch my frequent use of "we" and "our." If you feel me to be biased or stereotypical, that is your prerogative, but unless you back up your assertions with logical counter claims to what I have said you are simply being reactionary.

The simple fact remains that, by and large, Americans are less worldly and far less knowledgeable about other cultures than their foreign counterparts. Europeans on the other hand, despite having their own set of shortcomings and issues, are usually much more cognizant of what is happening outside of their immediate locale. That is undisputable. Just watch a European local news broadcast, and then flip on your local channel's nightly news...

But why do you only compare Americans to Europeans? Because they are both white? The majority of Americans happen to be a lot more educated and worldly than the rest of the globe if you count China, S.E Asia, India, Africa, the Middle East and S. America. (an Indian friend has noted to me the fact that there are millions of Indians who do not know they live in India). Don't all those billions people count? Why is Europe the only legitimate standard of comparison?

The USA was founded on immigrant, working class stock while Europe remains rooted in an aristocratic, elitist world view shaped by 1000 years of congested civilization. Is it possible Americans could be viewed as peasants who have made good, rather than stunted, degenerate Europeans?