Billable hours are not the last vestige of the lawyer profession being run like a guild. We are still a guild in every conceivable sense: we determine what it takes to be a lawyer, prohibit anyone who isn't a lawyer from doing what we have deemed to be lawyer's work, and there's basically nothing anyone else can do about it. We even pay dues.

The only way you can eliminate billable hours is by convincing big firms that $1 million per partner in profits and $180,000/year for first-year attorneys are too high. And good luck to you in doing that. Also, especially for big corporations, it is very difficult to switch away from a firm that you have been with for a long time and knows how your company runs. You can't just threaten to leave unless a new billing structure is adopted. You can only pick through your bill and object to double-billing and other chicanery.

To be fair, there are instances (especially in litigation) where a lot of work simply must be done, and it will cost a lot. There is no way around it. For those times, flat fees just do not work. And a client may be hesitant to cap fees if that means not getting the best quality representation. So I think tales of the billable hour's death are greatly exaggerated.

As for those first-years who bemoan monstrous billable hour requirements, I have no sympathy. You don't have to take the job. I have had a successful private practice without any billable requirements. If you think graduating from a top-tier school entitles you to lots of money and plenty of free time for golf, guess again. The only way to get big firms to change how they treat associates is to leave or not take the job in the first place. Vote with your feet. You don't have to kill yourself to make six figures in the law.

I don't think anyone doubts anything that you're saying, with one exception. I don't know why you're so harsh on young lawyers.

It's really, really hard to make it as a solo, at least from what I've seen. Can you really begrudge people for taking jobs with "good" law firms right out of school? Most of them are too ignorant (in the true sense of the word) to do differently. I think most people want the training that today's middle-aged lawyers got when they were young, and the profession was smaller. Is that so much to ask? Answer: yes.

What I would tell everyone in law school, given the platform, is that every lawyer is a small-business owner, and that small business is your career. If you find the idea of practicing on your own or finding your own clients repugnant, you should find a new profession (or try to find a job with the gov't)

Let me second Syncomancy's comments while acknowledging the confusion and angst of young lawyers. The reality is that one can have mentoring, training and reasonable hours. However, the price is the size of your compensation. Ain't no free lunch out there.

And by the way, there is also room for camaraderie and a sense of contributing to the good of the commonweal.

JackD, sign me up.

If there's a way to find a reasonable law firm to work for, I'd do anything to work there. I will even move anywhere in the lower 48.

The problem I've found is that, ab initio, you can't tell how a firm is going to be. The only number out there that is certain is base compensation. Everything else is subject to change at whim or at will. You aren't going to be able to get a sense of how people really are under pressure, and what they really expect from you during an interview.

In fact, if someone said, "We're not going to pay you market rate because we really invest a lot in mentoring you and making sure you have reasonable hours," you'd think they were daffy.

An example-- I was doing contract work at a place and I saw a partner interview a candidate. He was laughing, smiling, telling jokes, etc. Having worked with the guy for 4 months, I knew he was verbally abusive, and largely despised by the staff and other attorneys.

So, I am sure that person went away from the interview thinking that he was a great guy, when, in fact, he was not. It's only after she's committed herself that she's going to find out what he's really like.

It's always a good idea to interview associates in the firm and if they won't let you, to pick up the clue. Word of mouth is as important in the law firm world as it is anywhere else.

That's a good tip, but I think it works better in theory than in practice.

Trying to get hired, you're in an inferior bargaining position, no matter how you look at it. They don't need you, and you need them. 1) You don't want the first step in the interview process to be you making waves and 2) no associate they let talk to you is going to tell you the truth.

Yeah, sorry, for the cynicism. I learned it some time after leaving law school and starting work.

If that's making waves, then you don't want to work there, at least any longer than it takes you to find another job. What do you mean they don't need you? Of course they do. Otherwise they wouldn't try to con you into working in their sweat shop. The real question, let's face it, is whether or not you're willing to work for 60K-80K instead of 160K. Like I said, there's no free lunch.

I live and work in Chicago. Any job opening is going to have dozens of candidates apply for it, particularly if it doesn't require a lot of experience. Even if there is an experience requirement, I'd guess you'd get anywhere from 10-20 very qualified applicants, if not more.

I wish the choice were between 60-80k and 160k. I'd sleep very well at night.

Here's a brief glimpse into my world. After working for two years, I got laid off because I worked at a small firm and there was a work shortage.

I interviewed for a job some time after that. Mind you, I graduated Order of the Coif and had worked as a lawyer for two years, and clerked for 2 years continuously during law school at a law firm. Starting salary was, as he put it, "about what a first year prosecutor makes (~42k, I think). Of course, no pension."

Health insurance? No.

Work requirements--- suit every day, 8:00 AM to 7:00 PM, no knocking off early, but you rarely had to work weekends.

Vacation-- take some time if you need it (which is code for "why would you want to take a vacation?").

Was that a job I wanted? No, but it's pretty typical of what you're going to get offered. Someone is going to take that job and be glad they got it.

Quite honestly, I'd move anywhere in the habitable universe for between 60 and 80k, pay my own moving expenses, and show up ready to work 2000 hours. I know at least a dozen other people just like me. In fact, I know people who've given up even trying to get a law job anymore.

The law, as they say, is a tough mistress.

Funny thing. So do I although I'm now part of the leisure class. Send your resume to run75441@aol.com and he'll send it to me.

JackD--

Tried to send it on, but I got a bounce-back saying there's a problem with the e-mail address. Let me know if there's somewhere else I can send it.

Thanks for your help. I really appreciate it.

Ooops, sorry, use hotmail.com.

Not happy with your time at a law firm - then do this. Make rain. Clients bring power. Really - business is out there. You just have to find it. Join a social club, a political party, network, knitting club, whatever, etc. Get one or two legit clients and watch your stature rise.

I did this. I joined a political party. I went to their monthly meetings - that's it. While there, I met the Associate Gen Counsel of a fortune 100 company who was being absorbed by another, larger company. Hence, the need for legal work in my field to be done in that regard (severances, etc.). We became friends, and I got a client, which gave me bargaining power at the large firm I worked at during that time.

Network, network, network. Do some socially conscious work that you BELIEVE IN. People notice. I have no doubt that if I wanted to step back into practice, that I'd have more than a handful of people willing to recommend me to anyone (including their employers).

I'm a 3l going to a top 20 school. I'm was one of those kids coming out of undergrad not knowing anything about the profession...I just wanted to keep going to school. Nor had I ever had a job that paid more than 12.50 an hour. I didn't even look for a job my first year. I spent my 1L summer in Europe. So basically, I didn't have a clue what a law firm was or what they did. How many hours you worked, or what training they give.

Anyway, after a year, I was near the top of my class, and a member of the law review (I hate journal work!). I went into OCS having a ton of interviews my second year and got squat from law firms of any type--apparently I wasn't the "big firm" type. I felt completely devastated by this. Rejection hurts.

But I did get an offer from a federal agency, so I decided to work there over the summer as a last resort. While I was there, I was amazed by the number of attorneys who had left large firms, some who use to be partners, to come work for 1/3 the pay. Apparently it happens all the time. I didn't know how lucky I was to get a position there as apparently hundreds of people apply for a small number of jobs.

When I read your account, I feel incredibly lucky--as if fate had guided me. I'm going to be working 40 hours a week, no clients, no billing, in a topic I'm really interested in and for a decent amount of money.

If attorneys are looking for sympathy from the general public, I can assure you that the grail is closer at hand. Few, if any people, believe that actual work is happening during those "billable hours". A more prevelant belief is that time is billed according to the fiscal needs (desires) of the law firm. Then again, I'm jaded. I've been a client of three different law firms, and failed to make regular payments on somebodys Bimmer and club dues. I was only making 70k per year, at best, and couldn't feed you sharks.

But the basis of my opinion came much earlier in life. After being the first student to ace mercantile law in undergrad, my professor (who'd been teaching roughly 8 years) gave me the high praise of "you have a keen mind for the law". I inquired about pursuing law post grad, to which he responded "you have two character flaws which will inhibit you from a successful practice of law; an overdeveloped sense of fair play, and a conscience."

I never fully understood until I hired a lawyer.

"you have a keen mind for the law". I inquired about pursuing law post grad, to which he responded "you have two character flaws which will inhibit you from a successful practice of law; an overdeveloped sense of fair play, and a conscience."

I never fully understood until I hired a lawyer.

Sorry, had to laugh.

I'm not sure what the issue about 1800 billable hours is? but maybe I'm not understanding the billability issue in the law field.

I work in the environmental field, our salary is based on 2080 hour (40 hour work weeks with the unpublished understanding we are supposed to put in 45+ hours gets taken into account for our bonuses) We have billable goals we are to meet, (lower the level higher billability due to less need for a 'first year' to do much in the way of overhead work (budgets, project management, invoicing, proposals, etc.) I have a billable goal of 1700 hours, which if you meet it or not gets factored into the calculations used to determine an annual bonus (and they aren't big to begin with). And I don't get paid a 6 figure salary. heck, if I got a 6 figure salary I'd be as billable as they wanted me to be and bust my hump to do it!