There have been occasional cases of child born to virgins under unusual circumstances. One I recall reading about was during a Civil War battle in Mississippi, a miniball tore off the testicle of a Confederate soldier, and then struck a young woman who was watching the battle some distance away. After her wound healed, she was discovered to be pregnant, although still a virgin.

Strange but (supposedly) true.

It this case the sperm came from the testicle of that soldier. Who supplied the sperm to Mary? How did it get in her? One can say 'those are sick and nasty questions' but they are only logical questions. I would never ask some bogus questions UNLESS someone tries to sell be on a myth like how JC was born myth.

Jazz, I'm curious to know what it is about the possibility of the "myth" being true that threatens you so much. You've been all over this subject saying that it's ridiculous, and that anyone who believes it is an idiot. So what about it is so objectionable to you?

I know it can't be proven. But neither can a lot of things that wouldn't necessarily have to involve a miracle. Are you that narrow-minded? Arrogant? Or just plain scared?

Think about everything that had to happen in just such a manner, at just the right time to get us here in the first place, and how our bodies work alone, is miraculous! It's much more logical to believe that all of these details that allow us to live and sustain a species, and everything else that lives and the things we use that don't live, well the list is endless, but it's much more logical to believe that these events were orchestrated, than that they just fell into place, which would be a miracle in itself. I've never understoond why people are so opposed to accept things that they, in their infinite wisdom, apparently, don't quite get. That, to me, is just pure small-minded arrogance. And the concept behind it makes our existence pointless.

mrsfoz5:

Think about everything that had to happen in just such a manner, at just the right time to get us here in the first place, and how our bodies work alone, is miraculous!

Ahh! I get it. We cannot yet describe exactly how we came to be, so ANYTHING that ANYONE makes up--as long as it's appealing to you--might be true!

Clever! Uh...just don't try to use that kind of thinking in order to build a bridge--or do brain surgery :)

OR, to put it another way: We cannot describe exactly how we came to be. Therefore, the virgin birth is TRUE, but Zeus being the god of gods is FALSE.

Nice thinking!

woking57:

There have been occasional cases of child born to virgins under unusual circumstances. One I recall reading about was during a Civil War battle in Mississippi, a miniball tore off the testicle of a Confederate soldier, and then struck a young woman who was watching the battle some distance away. After her wound healed, she was discovered to be pregnant, although still a virgin.

Strange but (supposedly) true.

A story even more improbable (as it is related) than the story of jesus. Sperm taken directly from a testicle is not "matured" to the necessary state to fertilize an egg. The maturation process takes place further up in the male reproductive tract--and that process CAN be mimicked in the test tube--but not in ballistic flight.

My guess? The doctor spent a bit too much time alone with his patient...

StevieN, I never claimed to know exactly what happened anywhere! I rarely do that even when I'm an eye witness! Anyway, if no one knows exactly what happened, then how can you completely discount the divine intervention theory without being an intolerant hypocrite? Really, if no onw knows, then why am I already wrong? That's the behavior you said you find so annoying with those like me, so why is OK for you to do the same thing, when none of us can "prove" a thing?

If you don't know what happened, then wouldn't it be irresponsible of you to completely discount a theory based on NO PROOF or evidence of anything? Your claims, I think, are intended to lead us to believe that you are scientific in your thinking, but abandoning a theory before its disproven is anything but scientific.

Hypocritical, (or projecting,) defensive, and evasive. What does that spell? Putting words into my mouth that oppose yours to make an argument possible, ignoring all the points I made. I really want to know. If you're right, WHO CARES? I wasted my time, and now it's over. If I'm right, EVERYONE WILL CARE. (Don't be too flattered, that's the same thing I tell the JWs that knock on the door.)

Your vehement protest of this possibility is very telling. Especially in the absence of proof for either side. I have listened to both sides and I choose to believe what makes the most sense. It simply makes more sense that all you see everywhere, everyday was created. The "coincidence factor" required to believe anything else is also anything but scientific.

"Nice thinking!" What did you mean by that? That I don't think well? That I'm wrong, despite having no counter? Is that the best you could do? Thank you for that. Insults are also very telling.

mrsfoz5,

I can't work up enough steam to give you really involved and complete answers to your questions. Why? Because it's clear you don't really want such answers. How is it clear? Because you don't seem to really want to do a lot of thinking yourself--you want someone else to do the thinking and hand you an answer that is acceptable to you (without apparently, not even requiring you to do much thinking about which answers would BE acceptable, and why!).

But. I'll try to point out a few things, in no particular order.

"...If you don't know what happened, then wouldn't it be irresponsible of you to completely discount a theory...."

Arbitrarily choosing a myth that sounds nice (or, more typically I'm sure, the one you happened to be raised with) is not having a "theory." I brought up the bit about Zeus to try to demonstrate to you that there have been THOUSANDS of gods and creation myths invented throughout history--all with precisely equal reasons to believe them: NONE. I suspect that you REJECT the Zeus "theory" (and all the rest, except the "jesus" theory). Do you declare yourself irreponsible for rejecting all those other "theories."

In order to explain the world we live in only science can give answers with REASONS to believe.Science is SIMPLY the process of saying: "What might be going on here, and, if we get on to something, can we find a way to OBJECTIVELY DEMONSTRATE that our idea is "reliable," or deserves a reasonable consensus that it's "true" or "makes sense."

Science is not a religion. It's not "just a thing that's no better than any other thing." It's the ONLY THING that has allowed humans to get truths that have any MEANING or UTILITY. None of the gods, religions, revelations, prophets that have ever existed have enabled us to go to the moon, for example. But science HAS! And, to be sure, for almost all of human history, the act of going to the moon would have been considered a miraculous, magical, supernatural event of the HIGHEST ORDER!

From some things you've said elsewhere it appears that you consider the issue/phenomenon of "evolution" to have significance to the kind of questions you raise. There is HARDLY space here to discuss this topic (even though my PhD is in molecular and cell biology--which has exposed me to a lot of information about evolution). Suffice it to say that evolution is the CORE PRINCIPLE of biology, and it has been proven as fact by hundreds of thousands of the smartest people around, working long hours in the lab and field over their lifetimes, for over a hundred years since Darwin's revelatory insights. Thus, any "religion" that claims that people and animals were simply created de novo is WRONG--and it's mythical, non-real basis is established thereby.

To learn more about evolution you might visit the TalkOrigins website: http://www.talkorigins.org/

I'd also highly advise the series of videos on youtube created by "potholer 54," who is I believe a geologist. He's created 9 videos at last count, each less than 10 minutes long, and each better than the last for understanding what science can definitively claim about our origins. I recommend you start with "God and DNA Made Easy" <link>

You may not like these sites. They require THINKING and STUDYING--they don't supply easy and complete answers just handed to you. But....why not have a look, and see if life, the universe, and everything is worth learning about?

Personally if the soldier story was even partly true... I'd say that it was some girl who didn't want her family to know she what she was doing in her spare time. It just doesn't ring true.

they tested this on mythbusters a while back. certified busted. more than likely, the the woman just claimed the story was true to avoid the embarrassment of pregnancy out of wedlock.

mrsfoz5:

Jazz, I'm curious to know what it is about the possibility of the "myth" being true that threatens you so much.

People like you who proselytize endlessly about it, use it to tell the rest of us how to live our lives (despite the fact that we're doing you no harm), and start wars over it. It has nothing to do with the myth (and it is a myth, no quotes needed) being true or not, and everything to do with how you and your co-religionists act upon your belief.

woking57:

There have been occasional cases of child born to virgins under unusual circumstances. One I recall reading about was during a Civil War battle in Mississippi, a miniball tore off the testicle of a Confederate soldier, and then struck a young woman who was watching the battle some distance away. After her wound healed, she was discovered to be pregnant, although still a virgin.

Strange but (supposedly) true.

Absolutely false. <link>

"Jazz, I'm curious to know what it is about the possibility of the "myth" being true that threatens you so much. You've been all over this subject saying that it's ridiculous, and that anyone who believes it is an idiot. So what about it is so objectionable to you?"

Hes about as threatened as you are to having to admit that you believe some pretty wacky stuff. Same coin different side.

For all in this discussion: Late summer 1996, I watched as a flock of seagulls feasted upon a hill of oyster shells on the dock of the Blum Bros Oyster Co in New Haven, CT. I noticed three seagulls soaring in a circular pattern above the Mill River, about fifty feet west from the pile of shells. For no reason I kept watching these three gulls, and they started ascending into the sky. As they got higher, and higher, their "form" got smaller, and they were so high that they looked like three white dots circling in a cloudless blue sky. As I thought to myself, "How high can seagulls fly?"; the three white dots stopped circling, simultaneously came to the center of the "circle" to form only one dot now, and that one white dot "flew" eastward, and as if someone turned off a light switch, vanished. Since that day my concept of everything has changed...

Fast forward twelve years, Dec. 7, 2008, 10:40 pm: I'm at the same location, and doing some sky gazing. The wind chill is about ten degrees farenheit; it is a frigid night, crisp and clear. I notice something in the northwest sky (I'm facing north, the same spot as the "gull" incident). I'm surprised because I just scanned that part of sky; it's moving away from me, and as I'm trying to figure out what I'm looking at, it changes direction and starts moving toward me(southerly). Immediately I know this is of a supernatural experience (re: the seagulls). I start shouting to this "thing", "I'm right here!" "Here I am", over and over. It's appearence is like a milky cloud. It moves with intention southerly, and seems to float as it moves easterly, but coming closer and closer. Now my bravado, "I'm right here" etc. is now, "Oh my god! oh my god" over and over. This milky cloud, this apparition, this spectre, whatever YOU want to call it, is now hoovering directly over my head! I am filled with a fear unimaginable; I think to myself "oh god, I better go inside and hide." What can I say, I was afraid; I'm human. But the instant this fear filled me, the apparition (as I refer to it) started floating away. I called to it, "Come back!" "I'm sorry, I was scared!" But it disappeared into that frigid sky. I must tell you, when it was over my head and I was looking up at it. It was like looking at a solar eclipse: a black circle with an aura around it. The colors of the ring around it were a white, and bluish-pink. Afterward, I just thanked "God" for allowing me to see this; I mean, who else could I thank? But I don't doubt things anymore, e.g. the immaculate conception, Mohammed being taken up, etc. etc.

In conclusion, I love science. I'm fasinated with quantum physics, the nano-world, the atom. But I am also a witness to the supernatural - the occurrence that science cannot explain. Is there a different dimension, a worm hole, above the Mill River in New Haven, a spirit realm? I'm open for opinions... peace