I don't think it's all that accurate to compare the pagan roots of Christian holidays to the hip refashioning of the church as we're seeing it today. Those pagan holidays had very ancient roots; observing the natural cycles is so embedded in the human psyche, Christianity probably needed to take on some of those embellishments instead of fighting them.

But the trends churches are embracing now are considerably more fleeting. One has to wonder how many of these congregations are going to change things up in the future, just to stay on top of the trends.

I wonder, though, how the church expects to remain a steadfast mainstay in the human experience if it is so willing to drift with the winds of change. The central message may be the same, but the atmosphere sends a different kind of message: you don't have to change for us, because your church will change for you. What kind of religion is that?

Christianity is going to be around for a long, long time, but pop culture is going to dilute it to such an extent that I doubt it's going to have the kind of personal impact it once did. Consider the study recently publicized that found teenagers who take oaths of abstinence rarely honor that commitment. Despite promises to God and family that they will remain celibate until marriage, they almost always surrender their virginity before their wedding night anyway. And why not? God will forgive them, after all.

Pop culture is going to win the war. It's already winning. Divorce is hardly noteworthy these days; how long before homosexual unions become tolerated and even accepted? I often quote a Flaming Lips song on this board: "With loving hands/and the arms are stretched so wide you can't even take a breath/knowing evil will prevail..." It's not "evil" today, though it was before...and it will prevail, always.

If you were older, perhaps you would realize that the evolution of the Church is not a new phenomenon. It has been changing since it's inception. I have personally witnessed many of these changes.

This is what happens when you make the foundation of your religion a belief in magic and insist that the writings of the ancient scribes are the inerrant word of God. As knowledge accrues and enlightenment reveals the impossibility of some of the long-held beliefs, the Church is forced to change or become irrelevant.

I'm not saying that this is either good or bad. It is what it is. I understand and share your sense of nostalgia and the desire to hold on to traditions. That is a part of human nature. It is not new.

This quote was attributed to Socrates by Plato around 600 BC: "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Absolutely, I totally concur...which is why, when I hear a believer talk about the "unchanging" nature of God, I have to chuckle. If God's will is to be expressed by his faithful in this world, he's not doing a very good job of keeping his followers in line.

But I'm all in favor of it. Christians will continue to believe they are being true to the one all-powerful Alpha and Omega, but they will always fashion their faith around what works for them. That's fine and dandy as far as I'm concerned, it's just their inability to admit this reality that irks me a bit.

"Those pagan holidays had very ancient roots; observing the natural cycles is so embedded in the human psyche"

By "ancient roots" you mean established by Marcus Aurelius and held only by Marcus Aurelius.

San:

"Those pagan holidays had very ancient roots; observing the natural cycles is so embedded in the human psyche"

By "ancient roots" you mean established by Marcus Aurelius and held only by Marcus Aurelius.

Marcus Aurelius started Saturnalia? What?

Um, Saturnalia wasn't December 25. Only one date was then and that was to Invictus Sol, which was Marcus Aurelius.

"The opening of spring was a natural beginning, and in the Bible itself there is a close relationship between the beginning of the year and the seasons. The ancient Roman year began in March, but Julius Caesar, in correcting the calendar (46 B.C.), made January the first month. Though thiscustom has been universally adopted among Christian nations, the names, September, October, November, and December (i.e., the seventh, eight, ninth, and tenth), remind us of the past, when March began the year. Christian writers and councils condemned the heathen orgies and excesses connected with the festival of the Saturnalia, which were celebrated at the beginning of the year" <link>

And remember, you can tear down a whore house and put up a hospital, without saying that the hospital was tainted for being on the same ground.

A day or two, you say tomato, I say tomah-toe..whatever the fuck. It's all about the fat man in the red suit these days anyway.

A day or two?

No, it was 6 days away in our calendar, and it was a multiple day feast.

Furthermore, the red suit is based on Thor, who had a sled (led by two donkeys though).

And it might have been Aurelian, not Aurelius, who started the Natali Invictus festival (I need to look it up to be sure, they have such similar names).

San,

Please give me a run-down of how many times our calendar has been changed since that time.

"Please give me a run-down of how many times our calendar has been changed since that time."

Since Christ's birth - A lot.

Good enough?

:)

Many precious memories of churches both as a child and watching children do christmas programs is the reson I love this time of year.

smal children in thier choir robes entering the small methodist chruch holding thier candles and singing hark the angles sing glory to the new born King Peace on earth God and sinner reconciled

a small child being held by beaming parents dressed in her christmas red as they join the church

cookies baked by the different families served with punch for all of us at the youth gathering for all the local youth in the region.

the rare Sunday moring christmas day chruch service with a little bag of an apple an oragne some candy that meant a lot to many children and adults and came from our little pennies and diems the youth had palced in the colection plate every Sunday.

The shouts of Merry Christmas the feeling of community of caring adults for the safety of the children and the kindess shown by the pastor and the delight of his family when the small gift was presented to him. But that was in the the 1950's when people and family meant so much more than a fancy car or a big trip 4 or 5 times a year to some exotic land.

The chruch meal held every month when everyone wanted a piece of the coconut pie or the chocolate cake baked by some of the best cooks in the world. The fried chicken or ham, mashed patatoes and corn,baked beans and macroni and chesse with just a simple cole slaw and bread was so much better than all the snob food all the big rich role setters jet setters in usa have to have now.

have a great Christmas

pax

" but the atmosphere sends a different kind of message: you don't have to change for us, because your church will change for you. What kind of religion is that?"

The oldest one, as Gods have long risen and fallen on a bountiful harvest or a drought, a conquest or a defeat. Religions, as social organisms, are subject to natural selection and evolve to survive changing environments.