IT is so much fun to do. Ms. O'Rourkes analysis is very good at describing the essential pieces of Knocked Up and I agree that it is told from what is essentially a male perspective. That is not to say that KU was misogynist or even callous towards women; rather it was a movie with a primarily male point of view. I would enjoy a similar movie from a female point of view but that would be a different movie. My basic disagreement with Ms. O'Rourke may lead to me being labeled a misogynist but if that happens so be it. I feel that this movie was basically accurate in its depictions of the ways in which men and women deal with family life. Pete was irresponsible and inconsiderate. Debbie was controlling and critical. I believe that the problem exists not in the fact that Debbie cannot be more free but rather that Pete makes unilateral decisions to abrogate his responsibilities to Debbie. I believe that Pete and Debbies' relationship mirrors the relationships of many men and women in that Pete wants to be irresponsible and Debbie wants him to be more responsible. The solution to this problem would not appear to be to let Debbie be more irresponsible anymore than a solution to me gaining weight would be my doctor gaining weight. Rather Pete needs to become more responsible. That is the reality we need to acknowledge as a culture in order to be more equitable. Women want men to be more considerate and responsible and the should not be chastized or or described as shrewish because they do. Men in our culture need to give up the idea that their freedom and independence is an inalienable right.

How is wanting to spend time with his friends or see a movie alone from time to time irresponsible? How was the family damaged by it? That is something missing in this discussion. Be more responsible? What does that mean? Be a humorless servile workaholic? How was Pete's character negatively affecting his family by trying to have some fun? He seemed to be a pretty good Dad to me and his kids seemed to like him just fine. I agree with many of the points made about the film, but I just don't understand why marriage seems to equate with handing over your sovereignty to you wife or else you are irresponsible.

I definitely do NOT think that marriage means handing over your sovereignty to you wife. Pete was irresponsible because he lied to his wife about where he was and what he wanted to do. He needed to have a frank discussion with her about his desires and needs and her desires and needs. Instead he decided to make a unilateral decision to take the time he wanted. This was cowardly and immature. The lying damaged the trust in his relationship which is why it was irresponsible. A marriage needs to be invested and fed almost like a separate member of the family. I might want to go over to my brothers house and play Halo on one level but I know that it is better after a long week to stay home with my wife and watch Love Actually. And in the end more rewarding.

"but I know that it is better after a long week to stay home with my wife and watch Love Actually. And in the end more rewarding."

I'm sure many many men have told themselves this.

I might want to go over to my brothers house and play Halo on one level but I know that it is better after a long week to stay home with my wife and watch Love Actually. And in the end more rewarding.

This could not have been written by a man. If it was, you sir, are on a whole other level of immasculation that I do not know about.

Pete was irresponsible because he lied to his wife about where he was and what he wanted to do. He needed to have a frank discussion with her about his desires and needs and her desires and needs.

In my experience, these frank discussions turn out to be pretty one-sided and there is usually no compromise. The "discussion" is: "You can't go see your friends because there's this that and the third to take care of around the house and we need to spend time together bwaaaaaa" to which there's not much to reply to.

Instead he decided to make a unilateral decision to take the time he wanted. This was cowardly and immature.

It's cowardly and immature to make a decision for yourself? I know, I know, when you're in a relationship there's no more "I" there's only "we". Still, if your relationship can't stand up to someone expressing ther individuality every once and awhile, it's not much of a relationship.

The lying damaged the trust in his relationship which is why it was irresponsible.

Or the lying allowed him to regain some level of his masculinity by gicing himself repreive from the warden. Regradless, what is labeling some guy "irresponsible" going to accomplish? When my girlfriend scratched my car it was "irresponsible" yet somehow I soldiered on. Will calling her irresponsible make her less likely to scratch the car in the future? Not likely.

C'mon "man".

Also, if we all did lay down and comply in a "responsible" fashion we become viewed as too nice or passive and the sexual attraction goes right out the window. I always thought it strange that so many women seem to want to turn us into guys they are not attracted to. Granted these are just generalizations, but it has always seemed to me that many women have no idea what they are actually attracted to.

I agree that the key issue here is the perspective. We could argue til we were blue in the face about what's "typical" of men and women in relationships -- it's just something you can't generalize. But I loved this article because it captures the smaller, disconcerting nuances of gender portrayal in this film, something I felt was much more prevalent in Knocked Up than in 40 Year Old Virgin (where Catherine Keener was cute, independent, but still kind and vulnerable).

Let's walk through. Pete is shown to be irresponsible in the eyes of Debbie and Alison because he illicitly escapes the family life to go have his own fun on the sly. But what's wrong with this? Sure, it would be nice if he didn't lie about it. But in and of itself, I don't feel that a guy (or anyone) going off to watch a movie to have some time to himself is that big of an offense.

I don't think movie goers would think it was either. What happens is, the situation is set up: the guy is a liar and irresponsible, therefore the responsible woman gets upset and kicks him out. Typical for these comedies, as Ms. O'Rourke says. But because the argument against Pete ends up being so weak, Debbie comes off as even more shrewish for taking offense at something so little. It's not the act itself -- it's how Apatow stacks the argument in the guy's favor.

I'm so glad that Katherine Heigl said what she said. It's good to know that even the lead actress in the film was able to recognize the weak portrayal, step back from it, and try to enjoy the movie for what it was -- a guy's comedy. Hopefully we'll have more balanced ones in the future. Maybe Leslie Mann could lend a hand?

~Holly

I think maybe the men are missing the point.

We all want to have fun. I want to come home from work sometimes and sit on my ass and do nothing but watch TV.

BUT . . .

I have 2 children, one of which is in school and it's only Kindergarten, which means she needs help doing homework. Luckily my dinner is already made, thanks to my mom, but the dishes still need doing. The kids need a bath.

The house needs cleaning, the yard needs straightening up. The grocery shopping needs to get done and the girls both have ballet.

So, my question to you guys is this - which is more important. The above list of "to dos" or YOU sitting on YOUR ass watching football, or hanging out with your friends. And do you think it's fair that YOU get to make that decision UNILATERALLY and leave your wife to do it all?

That's the point you are missing. I would no more just take off and leave my husband in the lurch because I wanted free time than I would expect him to do the same.

A marriage is a partnership and what Incogneato was saying was that in a truly good marriage, these things are discussed. I don't make weekend plans without finding out if my husband had something different in mind and he does the same. I work, too, so why should I be the only one taking care of the kids or doing the housework?

I guess that means that if the woman wants it clean she should do it herself?

Yes, I want a man to be assertive and independent, and manly, etc. But a REAL man is also responsible to his family. If he wanted to be a college kid, then he shouldn't have gotten married and had a family. Then he can have all the fun he wants.

That's the point I think Incogneato was trying to make and it's a good point and I totally agree.

Yeah, I slack off on the housework to have fun with the kids or do nothing, but the fact is as ADULTS we have responsibilities and if you add kids to that, it's even more so.

Yes, some women need to relax and have fun. But men need to know that they still need to chip in. And, personally, I know more men who chip in than don't.

In the movie, it was certainly a lack of communication. Pete and Debbie needed to discuss things, just as my husband and I did. Working all week and dealing with 2 very energetic little girls under 6 is taxing. If I or my husband need an hour or so on the weekend to just have quiet, than we bring it up. But we make sure that we've helped each other out first with things that need to get done. What's wrong with a clean house or a yard that doesn't look like a junkyard?

And, yes, the other guy (sorry, it escapes me now) - he needed to act responsibly, too. If she gives birth and is at home with a screaming baby all day and needs the break and the rest, what is more important - that he gets high with his friends, or gives her the break by taking over?

It is about responsibility. And yes, for BOTH parties. The women in the movie, and women in real life need to know when to let loose, too. Some women are obsessed with cleaning and straightening, etc. Sometimes they need to just relax and let it go.

It has to be talked about, negotiated, etc. That's the best, most healthy way to handle it.

So, Incogneato, I'm with you!

To second some of Inquisitor's sentiments: Judd Apatow isn't completely off base with his depictions of killjoy women and perpetually adolescent men. It's unfortunate that we are so often polarized into these roles, but I do think that men, moreso than women, buck against the realities of taking on adult responsibilities. I am married to a man who was worried about losing his freedom, autonomy, and ability to have fun, ever again, when he got married. And yes, the Shrew Lady part of me admits, he has lost some of his ability to go out whenever he wants to, spend money frivolously, and get drunk with his friends every weekend. But you know what? Welcome to Grownup Town. I don't have a my own pony anymore either. If you are in a marriage, you have a responsibility to another person or persons, and you can't keep living like you are 21 anymore. You have to pay the electric bill before you buy a new video game; and just as there is no Santa, there is no Cleaning Fairy.

I have to say though, that he has really stepped up to the plate domestically since our son was born. Much as I would rather it were the opposite, it happens that I have the fulltime job, and he's ABD and working on his dissertation (though it's hard to get much done with a baby in the house!). He, therefore, is staying home with our son while I am at work; he does pretty much all the grocery shopping and a goodly amount of the cooking. I have had to relax my standards about what constitutes "clean" and accept that if he makes an effort, I should acknowledge it gratefully, even if the laundry gets washed, but not folded, or the bathroom tub has been scrubbed, but the shower curtain is still moldering.

What happens when domestic responsibilities aren't shouldered evenly? It breeds some toxic resentment on the part of the spouse who takes care of all things financial and domestic. As a friend of mine (now divorced) put it, "It's not that I mind doing the dishes, but I mind that if I don't do it, they don't get done. And it's not that I MIND mowing the lawn, but I mind that if I don't do it, the grass grows unchecked for weeks at a time. And it's not that I mind paying the bills, but it pisses me off when they sit on the front table, unopened for weeks unless I am the one who opens them, writes a check, puts a stamp on the envelope, and puts them back out in the mailbox. I feel like I have a child, not a husband."

No wonder all of the married guys in my office always tell me NOT to ever do it.

Cat park said: "What happens when domestic responsibilities aren't shouldered evenly? It breeds some toxic resentment on the part of the spouse who takes care of all things financial and domestic. As a friend of mine (now divorced) put it, "It's not that I mind doing the dishes, but I mind that if I don't do it, they don't get done. And it's not that I MIND mowing the lawn, but I mind that if I don't do it, the grass grows unchecked for weeks at a time. And it's not that I mind paying the bills, but it pisses me off when they sit on the front table, unopened for weeks unless I am the one who opens them, writes a check, puts a stamp on the envelope, and puts them back out in the mailbox. I feel like I have a child, not a husband." "

Great way to put it. I think that's exactly it. It's not WHAT we do, but the fact that unless I'M doing it, it doesn't get done.

My husband was just not the "cleaning" type. He hated clutter and would "straighten up" and he did vaccuum, but only when the dog hair got so bad that you couldn't see the rug for it. Dusting, not so much. The bathroom - only when it was just starting to look like a biology experiment.

Lucky for him, I only work 3 1/2 days a week, so I've taken over the cleaning duties, mostly because I'd rather have time to spend with him and the kids on the weekend then cleaning. And my mom helps out watching the kids and cleaning the downstairs of the house during the week.

Before that, I had to read him the riot act - we were going to have to BOTH do it at least once a week. Dishes are a whole other story - I usually let him do homework with the older kid and I'll do the dishes. His idea of doing dishes is putting it ALL in the dishwasher, even though the pots I have are not dishwasher safe. So if he has to handwash, then he doesn't do it.

The only thing he does have going for him is that he is what I call Army Neat - he puts his dirties in the laundry, puts his clean clothes away, knows how to do laundry, irons his own shirts, makes the bed and generally keeps the clutter down. If he was a real slob, I'd pull my hair out.

Cat Park Said: "And yes, the Shrew Lady part of me admits, he has lost some of his ability to go out whenever he wants to, spend money frivolously, and get drunk with his friends every weekend. But you know what? Welcome to Grownup Town. I don't have a my own pony anymore either. If you are in a marriage, you have a responsibility to another person or persons, and you can't keep living like you are 21 anymore. You have to pay the electric bill before you buy a new video game; and just as there is no Santa, there is no Cleaning Fairy."

PRECISELY! Why is that hard for some men to understand? It's like, they get married, and then expect everything to be the same as when they were single - well you have a wife, a partner now. Then you have kids. There are responsibilities. If you want to remain a child then don't get married and don't have kids. The solution is very simple.

And it doesn't mean you can't have some time to yourself to do your things. But you have to work around the schedule of the FAMILY, not just your OWN schedule. If my husband wants to go target shooting on a Saturday, he has the decency to talk to me FIRST before just making plans. What if I had an appointment, or something else to do, or the kids had something to do? The needs of the FAMILY come first.

Can some women be "shrewish"? Sure. I've met some of them, too. But so can some men be boarish and irresponsible. The best couples I know are both fun and responsible.

It's all about striking a balance.

I feel like I have a child, not a husband.

And I feel like I have a mother not a wife.

You all make great points and it's true that the division of household labor isn't always optimal, but do you have to be a ball buster about it?

I've lived in houses with men before (I'm a man btw) and yes, a lot of times I'd feel like, "damn, can I get a hand keeping this place from devolving into a rat's nest?" But at the end of the day I'd say, "Hey dude, can you pick up after yourself." or "hey man, can you wash the dishes in the sink since you like never do that . . . ever."

There has to be a way to get your message across without seeming like a shrew.

I think it depends on how the MAN responds as well. Perhaps the woman BECAME a shrew because she's asked for his help for the UMPTEENTH time and she's tired of having TO ASK IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Don't you think that you would start to get a little, well, shrewish, if you had asked your roommates over and over and over and over again to help out, to clean up after themselves?

Yes, some women can be shrewish from the get-go, just as some men can be, well, dickish. But it also depends on the response. You get tired of repeating yourself and so you are bound to get upset. Of course, if you've bottled it up for months and then lose it, it's not a good idea either.

It all comes down to COMMUNICATION. Men don't like to hear it, but YOU HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THINGS AND COMMUNICATE WITH PEOPLE.

LOL! We are illustrating the point of the movie perfectly. It's happening right here in real time. It still seems to me the being a "responsible" "grown up" equates to the end of fun unless you have permission from your wife. So let it be written, so let it be done.

I'd have to look it up but a recent study showed that men actually communicate more than women.