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Religion of Peace?
by Boss Greer
+1 Reply

As much as I try to separate Radical Islam in my mind from Muslims in general, things like this make it damnably difficult.

I've been following this for a few days and it's quite simply a load of crap.

Sudan Protesters: Execute U.K. Teacher

KHARTOUM, Sudan, Dec. 1, 2007 (CBS/AP) Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and knives, rallied Friday in a central square and demanded the execution of a British teacher convicted of insulting Islam for allowing her students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad."

The protesters streamed out of mosques after Friday sermons, as pickup trucks with loudspeakers blared messages against Gillian Gibbons, the teacher who was sentenced Thursday to 15 days in prison and deportation.

They massed in central Martyrs Square, outside the presidential palace, where hundreds of riot police were deployed, although they did not attempt to stop the rally.

"Shame, shame on the U.K.," protesters chanted.

They called for Gibbons' execution, saying, "No tolerance: Execution," and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad."

The women's prison where Gibbons is being held is far from the site, as is the Unity High School where she taught, which is under heavy security protection.

The protest arose despite vows by Sudanese security officials the day before, during Gibbons' trial, that threatened demonstrations after Friday prayers would not take place. Some of the protesters carried green banners with the name of the Society for Support of the Prophet Muhammad, a previously unknown group.

Some of the protesters, who an Associated Press reporter at the scene said numbered as many as 10,000, carried clubs, knives and axes but not automatic weapons, which some have carried at past government-condoned demonstrations, suggesting Friday's rally was not organized by the government.

The teacher wept in court Thursday as she heard her prison sentence, insisting she never meant to offend. She avoided a much heavier possible punishment of 40 lashes.

The sentence and quick seven-hour trial Thursday were aimed at swiftly resolving the case, which had put Sudan's government in an embarrassing position - facing the anger of Britain on one side and potential trouble from powerful Islamic hard-liners on the other.

The defense said the case was sparked by a school secretary with a grudge. But it escalated as Muslim clerics sought to drum up public outrage against what it called a Western plot to insult Islam's Prophet Muhammad and demanding Gibbons be punished.

The government, which has often touted its Islamic credentials, encouraged past protests over cartoons seen as insulting the prophet published in European papers. But its moves in this case suggested it feared the case could hurt its reputation in the West.

The teacher, Gillian Gibbons, "was in tears" when she testified in court Thursday, a member of her defense team, Abdel-Khaliq Abdallah, told The Associated Press.

"She said that she never wanted to insult Islam" by allowing the children to name the stuffed toy Muhammad, a common name among Muslim men, the lawyer said, speaking outside the courtroom. Media were barred from the chamber.

Gibbons, 54, was found guilty of "insulting the faith of Muslims" and sentenced to 15 days in jail, followed by deportation, said Ali Mohammed Ajab, a human rights lawyer on the defense team. The charge is a lesser offense in the article of the criminal code under which she was tried, which includes several possible charges.

Prosecutors had pressed for conviction on a heavier charge under the same article - inciting religious hatred, which carries a punishment of up to 40 lashes, six months in prison and a fine.

A judge leaving the courtroom confirmed the verdict to reporters, but refused to give his name.

Britain said it was "extremely disappointed with the sentence." London had been conducting delicate diplomatic efforts to ensure she received no punishment for what it said was a "misunderstanding."

In London, British Foreign Secretary David Miliband summoned the Sudanese ambassador after the verdict and sentence. During the 45-minute meeting, Miliband "expressed in the strongest terms our concern at the continued detention of Gillian Gibbons," the Foreign Office said in a statement. Miliband also spoke on the phone with Sudan's acting foreign minister.

Gibbons' supporters in Khartoum were divided over the verdict. Ajab, a human rights lawyer on the defense team, called the ruling "very unfair," blaming "hard-liners trying to make some noise."

But the director of Gibbons' Unity High School, Robert Boulos, said the lawyers hired by the school would not appeal, noting she could have received a heavier sentence. He said Gibbons, jailed since Sunday, has already served five days in prison and would only have to serve 10 more.

The case began with a classroom project on animals in September at the private school, which has 750 students from elementary to high school levels, most from wealthy Sudanese Muslim families.

Gibbons had one of her 7-year-old students bring in a teddy bear, then asked the class to name it and they chose the name Muhammad.

Each student then took the teddy bear home to write a diary entry about it, and the entries were compiled into a book with the bear's picture on the cover, titled "My Name is Muhammad," Boulos said.

But an office assistant at the school, Sara Khawad, complained to the Ministry of Education that Gibbons had insulted the prophet. Khawad testified at Thursday's trial, chief defense lawyer Kamal Djizouri said.

Khawad "was doing this out of revenge against the administration," Djizouri said. He did not elaborate. But the director of the school's Parent-Teacher Association, Isam Abu Hasabu, claimed Khawad had argued with the principal before the incident.

Comparing the Prophet Muhammad - Islam's most revered figure - to an animal or a toy could be insulting to Muslims. But Boulos said that, contrary to earlier reports, no parents had complained.

"It's just a teddy bear," Boulos said.

The government issued orders to clerics not to deliver inflammatory sermons Friday about the case or against foreigners, a senior government official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because the government had also ordered officials not to discuss the case.

The north of Sudan bases its legal code on Islamic law, and President Omar al-Bashir often seeks to burnish his religious credentials, playing up to his hard-line supporters.

But in Gibbons' case, the government appeared reluctant to let hard-liners steer it into tensions with Britain and the West. Sudan is already facing international scorn and charges of war crimes in Darfur, where the government is waging a brutal fight against non-Muslim rebels, reports CBS News correspondent Richard Roth.

Public pressure by Western governments over the Darfur conflict has eased recently, with a U.N.-African Union peacekeeping force preparing to deploy.
Re: Religion of Peace?
by MaryAnne
Except for the knives,it reminds me of the hysteria generated by the Neocons to push us into war with Iraq.Same mentality.We just do not get so violent.
Re: Religion of Peace?
by Boss Greer

Sorry, but that's a bunch of garbage. How many people here have ever claimed they wanted to execute you for your political views?

How many christians do you know that want you dead because of an accidental slight against Jesus? (Or even a deliberate one?)

That was poor, MA, just poor...

On another subject, have you done any research/given any thought to our discussion of what a 'Jew' consists of? No agenda, I'm just wondering where your thoughts are.

Re: Religion of Peace?
by MaryAnne

Are you saying those who objected to the war were not accused of being,Unpatriotic?"Called names and branded as,"Cowards."If so,your memory is as short as those I will not name on this board.

As to the question,I can only read what those who know more than I do about being,"Jewish."I never considered them a race,until you mentioned that.

My conception was that being Jewish meant the Religion.

People choose that and I have seen many change.I was not born a Christian,I chose to be one.My family is a mixture and they mean little to me.I am referring to the Denominations

.All Man made,as is the Jewish faith.You may correct me if I am wrong,but that is my belief and understanding.To each his own,but I do reserve the right to criticize when I see wrong doing from anyone.

Catholicism is man made.They have done many wrongs under that banner.That does not mean I think all Catholics are wrong.They have the freedom to choose.

Re: Religion of Peace?
by Boss Greer

Sure they were, no question. The war of words never stops, it seems. But I didn't see anyone calling for executions of their religious/political opponents, quite a different thing don't you think?

As for Jewish being a religion or a race, as I said it's both depending on circumstances. It's can also refer to a culture and/or an ethnicity.

The 'race' component has been clearly proven by DNA evidence though, it's not in dispute.

The confusion comes because often all 4 aspects of 'Jewish' are so interrelated, and also because many people like yourself simply don't know that there are distinctions. (No slight on you or them, nobody can know everything about everything.)

The key factor then becomes (to me at least), when one does learn of the distinctions, are they able to make the separation or do they continue to lump all 'Jews' together as a group?

Re: Religion of Peace?
by scully

Kind of reminds me of the puritans that settled here. They burnt people at the stake because their beliefs were not thier own. It happens with words these days. It just so happens over in that part of the world, they have not moved forward yet. It seems sometimes we are moving backward.

"...difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a common censor over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned;
yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
[Thomas Jeffersion, "Notes on the State of Virginia [1781-1785]" also George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.]

Re: Religion of Peace?
by Boss Greer

You are correct Scully, and I have made the same observation a number of times.

In fact if we look at all 3 of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), we see a similar pattern of initial violence and intolerance, eventually mellowing over time.

I wonder if Islam will have enough time? I wonder if it should?

Re: Religion of Peace?
by scully

I wonder if Islam will have enough time? I wonder if it should?

Please explain. Are you saying that it is our responsiblity to straighten them out?

Re: Religion of Peace?
by Boss Greer

I'm saying that Judaism took a very long time, Christianity slightly less, and if Islam follows the same course we are looking at violence and intolerance for the next couple of hundred years at least.

I simply wonder if the world at large is willing to allow that to be the case? How many lives do we allow to be lost to religious intolerance in the name of diversity and religious tolerance?

It's not a simple dilemma.

Re: Religion of Peace?
by MaryAnne

This is a battle caused by many who take religion and turn it into hate.

I know many of the Islamic Faith and that is not what they believe.They are peaceful.

Now,if we could just quit trying to make them over to be like us we might see a huge change.After all,it was rage against our interference in Saudi Arabia that brought down the Towers.Shouldn't we take a good,long hard look at our own actions? I can just see the rage I am inflicting on many on this board,but it is a serious question.

I read all the posts on here,and the rage against Islam is as bad as the rage against Judism. Both are wrong! As you well know from past experince on these boards,you have radicals from both sides.

BTW,what happened to Presidential Caucus?Is it gone?

Re: Religion of Peace?
by MaryAnne
Boss Greer:

I'm saying that Judaism took a very long time, Christianity slightly less, and if Islam follows the same course we are looking at violence and intolerance for the next couple of hundred years at least.

I simply wonder if the world at large is willing to allow that to be the case? How many lives do we allow to be lost to religious intolerance in the name of diversity and religious tolerance?

It's not a simple dilemma.

It will never be simple if we do not take a hard look at the actions of our Leaders.Why is it our place to tell others what to think?

Re: Religion of Peace?
by scully
It will take a leader in the Muslim world that embraces the peaceful side of the Quran rather than the war and violence side, I suppose.
Re: Religion of Peace?
by scully
Yes MaryAnne, we should look at our own actions and change our path.
Re: Religion of Peace?
by MaryAnne
Thank you Scully and BG.It is nice to have a debate about facts.
Re: Religion of Peace?
by Boss Greer

"Why is it our place to tell others what to think?"

Well, as painful as it may be, sometimes it IS 'our' place.

Because when another's 'thoughts' tell them that it is necessary, noble and honorable to kill me because of my beliefs, beliefs that pose no physical threat to them, I'm afraid I'm going to have to support taking action to show them the error of their ways.

I would much prefer dialog, diplomacy and sweet reason, but accept that in some circumstances those are insufficient to the task.

As has often been said, war is a horrible thing, but it's not the worst thing.

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