Let me cut to the facts. Nicene Creed Christians believe in an invented God that evolved from AD150 until Augustine in 425. It was an invention, just like any invention. That God created the universe Ex Nihilo, or out of nothing. Such is totally impossible and makes God liable for ALL evil in his creation. This is why Larry King can ask the typical Born Again "Christian" pastor why bad things happen to good people and not have an answer that rational people remotely find any more filling than air (nothing?). A God that created it all out of nothing is evil by liability extension, plane and simple, and is not a good God, and hence not a God (character counts for this job called "God"). If GM produces a fatal car, they get sued into bankruptcy. Your God is "unsafe at any speed" because we all sin.

Actually when you understand what Constantine did you understand that if God is everywhere, such as in your keyboard or the last visit to the toilet, you realize that the pagan Constantine fundamentally changed the foundational doctrines of Christianity to a new notion of "God" that was pagan. If God is everywhere, he is also in the door-knob, car, piece of steel, etc, and the worship of such a God is by definition pagan. Christianity moved to Constantine, not the other way around. You did or you died…sound familiar with Islam?

In contrast, the God(s) of J Smith's first vision was just like what the bible stated, just like Seth's son was after the image of Seth and I am after the image of my father, and more importantly, He (God) was material and distinct in space. God MUST be different from you and I, just as I must be different than you as separate material being or there is NO EVIL OR GOOD and we are all a COMPOUND IN ONE. See: Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 2:11. In other words, I am guilty of what you do, and visa versa. We are all joined at the hip and there can be no good or evil or distinction, ANY HEAVEN OR HELL, and in fact NO creation, just a big "milk shake."

A God that creates Ex Nihilo is NONSENSE, yet is central to ALL of Christianity, except the Mormons. Such a "God" is guilty of what I do, and since I have sinned, so has God and He no longer is good, nor God. This theological insight blows away any notions in Christian doctrine and is a Nuke at the heart of the Christian and Moslem (copy of Christian with variation) world. When you get off your high horse and understand this logical fact, you realize that J Smith had all the Christian spin misters by the balls. This is why they HATE the Mormons. Anti-Mormon Christians know their logic has a fatal feedback loop that kills the invention and turns it into a pagan invention. (Constantine won!)

At the heart of this (Mormon) doctrine is the doctrine of Intelligence, where the identity of you is non-created and eternal. You were in outer-space somewhere called "matter un-organized" out in space for eternity, brought to the realm of God, given a spirit body, and later a Physical body at the time of your birth on Earth. We, and all matter ("element" not adams like in physics) in space, is eternal, and in fact, there is "no matter without space, and no space without matter".

What that means is that when God "created" man he brought you out of chaos, and then gave you agency to move in space (like a real estate agent but different) or the right to choose. In essence, Christ is the insurance agent when you crash (sin) your car. God then is NOT guilty for your choices, Christ helps you clean up the mess, and logically can be a Good God and remain a God. Any God that would own a planet must be responsible for what happens on it. He is also separate and different than you are, yet we are both eternal in origin. God made a contract with you, trusting you would perform your promises in your "first estate" as a spirit being, and this life is a test of your willingness to abide by the laws that rule the multi-verses (where time is a variable, by the way.)

Without this "intelligence" doctrine, your God is guilty (sorry, show over), and Larry King has no answer that makes sense (nonsense). I don't have to go any further than this to know that what J Smith (the uneducated, "con-man" as some called him) taught, blew the doors off of ALL the spin of the Christian world. Unlike you and I, Smith had the balls to stay in the fight for which I will be eternally thankful for, and paid with his life. The same logical flaw applies to Islam.

Sorry guys, J Smith checkmated you on day one of his "con-game" at the age of 14. Sure, he may have made it up (not likely), or got luckly…but he got you for sure, and you know it! That is why you are pissed at Mormons. Your "con-game" is up because you God is an invention and is logically dead. He pointed out the fatal logical flaw of the Trinity in one simple and naïve/innocent account, and his impact is getting louder and louder as you get more pissed off in your arrogance. As for me, I am either Atheist (lights out) or Mormon, the rest is logical suicide.

If I put on my Atheist thinking cap, it becomes clear that Mr. Hitchens totally misunderstands Mormon doctrine. Of all religions of the world it is THE MOST reasonable to Atheists who know it well. After all, in Mormon doctrine, God is literally a "reasonable man," a "captain Kirk" of sorts. In fact in Mormon doctrine the notion of "come, let us reason" is central to us all, just like a gentle Father would be. Mormonism is life. We are His children. That simple truth blows the doors off the crusading, head chopping God of "Christianity" and Islam. If I were a born again, I would be pissed too…just saying…

In other words, Protestants and Catholics are not only wrong, but pray to a false God?

Just checking to see if that is what you meant. It makes sense from a religious point of view: what is the point of beleiving in your religion if others can be equally worthy?

But it is probably not the type of expression that is likely to get a member of a religion followed by 4% of America elected.

IOW LDS is responsible for its own intellectual actions.

Like the intellectual rationalization of racism as church dogma as recently as 1978.

OK.

And no - most Christians don't "hate" Mormons for the uniqueness of the Mormon view of God (btw the notion of a pervasive God or a self-incarnate god was part of the gnostic tradition that Constantine helped eradicate). At best that would be called egocentric

Wrong, gnostics did not believe in the physical nature of God, and how is "eradicating" another person's beliefs good policy. Mormons were one of the first to support the women's right to vote and abolition of slavery, but they had the misfortune to be in southern states where eradication of peoples beliefs, like "all men are created equal..." was not tolerated. No Mormon was a slave owner, yet most slave owners were "trinitarian" Christians...by their works their doctrines are known.

Clown_nose

Is that not what Catholics have done since 325 Ad and used death as their motivator? As Degsme below stated, Constantine "eradicated" people with other beliefs. All religions state their God is correct and leave out the logical extension that the other guys God ain't up to par. I see Trinitarian Christians and Islam as two dogs fighting together. Mormons don't have a dog in the fight...

That is key to my posts and a valid reason that Romney, as a Mormon, has a unique perspective that all other candidates do not have because he is Mormon. His faith is a positive in the Islamic conflict we are now in. I would not send a NAZI to negotiate with Jews...not smart. A Catholics or Trinitarian is an infidel in the eyes of Islam, especially ones like Rudy who are on their third marriage. Talk about offending people....

Mormons are the only neutral party to the fight. And, if you have not read many posts, most Mormons are not into contention as a point of doctrine and that is why they are so kind. They like to just state their beliefs and go on...just like Romney is doing.

Seaplaneguy:

Clown_nose

Is that not what Catholics have done since 325 Ad and used death as their motivator? As Degsme below stated, Constantine "eradicated" people with other beliefs. All religions state their God is correct and leave out the logical extension that the other guys God ain't up to par. I see Trinitarian Christians and Islam as two dogs fighting together. Mormons don't have a dog in the fight...

That is key to my posts and a valid reason that Romney, as a Mormon, has a unique perspective that all other candidates do not have because he is Mormon. His faith is a positive in the Islamic conflict we are now in. I would not send a NAZI to negotiate with Jews...not smart. A Catholics or Trinitarian is an infidel in the eyes of Islam, especially ones like Rudy who are on their third marriage. Talk about offending people....

Mormons are the only neutral party to the fight. And, if you have not read many posts, most Mormons are not into contention as a point of doctrine and that is why they are so kind. They like to just state their beliefs and go on...just like Romney is doing.

Now you're giving specific reasons why mormonism is the best religion for our president to have! Wow!

So that can only mean you CERTAINLY agree with Hitchens that Romney should be asked a GREAT MANY QUESTIONS about his religion and the role it will play in his presidency. Important issues, and Romney's built-in advantage as a mormon president should be widely questioned and discussed.

I agree. I think Romney should give long and explicit talks on his religion, what parts he has played in IT, and what parts IT will play in his policies. Good point, Seaplaneguy.

A most interesting post, Seaplane guy.

I just posted a link to this thread over on the faith-based fray in the belief that some of the others there might find your perspective of the theology of the early Christian Era to be worth discussing.

If you are so inclined, I would invite you to drop in over there.

Faith-Based

There was more than one strain of gnosticism. The early christian community was fairly rich in diversity.

Its nice to tout the abolition of slavery - but the plain jane reality is that racially based discrimination is built INTO the PRIMARY scripture of the Church of LDS, and it was something the Church of LDS practiced as Dogma and Canon Law up through 1978. NOTHING makes that go away. Not the hypocrisy of supposed Christians (who's church DOGMA and Canon Law was silent on racial discrimination)

And you are right - By LDS Works - ie dogmatic and Canon Law works - are your doctrines known. But you seem to be unwilling to accept that. Remember, that Lincoln opposed slavery and even emancipated the slaves - but still held racist beliefs. Being an abolitionist doesn't obviate the charge of racism.

to shove, the majority christian believers will not support Romney. Because in the end, his core belief is that they worship a false God, and that is hard to overcome.

But I think you are wrong about mormons not having a dog in the fight: mormons are just the poodle in the fight, so the bigger dogs are not paying attention. Radical islamists would be just as happy to behead a mormon as any other non-believer. And the very process of recruiting worldwide makes it likely they will see you sooner, rather than later.

Plus, moderate muslims accept jews and christians because they beleive in the bible. They may not accept Muhammed, but the essential core to the religion is the same. By skipping Muhammed and adding another testament, I don't think even moderate muslims would consider mormons to be of the "book." Though I guess the supposed declaration by Smith that he is a second Muhammed might be seen favorably...

"Let me cut to the facts. Nicene Creed Christians believe in an invented God that evolved from AD150 until Augustine in 425. It was an invention, just like any invention. That God created the universe Ex Nihilo, or out of nothing. Such is totally impossible and makes God liable for ALL evil in his creation."

To claim that something is impossible for an all powerful being just shows that you are an idiot.

Things cannot exist forever. They have to come into being. Thats how the universe works. There has to be a beginning.

You've got to be kidding me? Who taught you theology? Who taught you history?! If you're gonna lambast mainstream Christianity, at least start with the writing of Paul and the Gospels. They're the source of every argument that went into the Council of Nicea. And then move onto the social realities of the time were a bunch nutjobs were trying to co opt Christianity with their own little exclusionary and elitist cult of personalities. Thank GOD common sense took the lead. But nut jobs continued to pop up in history to try to bend Christianity to the will of a nut. And Mormonism is a great example of it.

.

Spg, you have set up a couple of straw men in your description of what mainstream Christianity believes.

First, you raise the "problem of evil" as if it were a dead stop to an omnipotent creator. The problem is that the "free will defense" seems quite viable. You don't even mention it.

Second, you state the cute little syllogism:

1. Christians believe that god is in all things.

2. A doorknob is a thing

Therefore 3. Christians worship doorknobs.

This is not an indictment of mainstream Christianity, but rather a cutesy bit of play with words.

The statement that "God is in all things" probably cannot be taken as a literal statement of the location where Christians believe God's person resides. I rather think most Christians would tell you they believe that God exists outside of our concept of space-time. The statement reflects their belief that I can perhaps best express as "God's handiwork can be seen in all things."

Thus, Christians by this statement are urged to have due reverence for all things, as they are, again, God's handiwork. It is an overstatement to equate that reverence with "worship" of the inanimate object as a deity per se.

Lastly, do you mean to say that Mormons believe that God is not responsible for my actions because God did not create me, but already found some essence of me to be in existence? If that's the case, I am of course compelled to ask, who DID create me?

"You can't fool me that way, Mr. Asimov. It's turtles all the way down!"

RonB52,

I don't think you got my quick version of the cliff notes of Mormon doctrine correctly. At the center is the doctrine of intelligences, making your identity as a unique being that is eternal, both before and after this life. In fact all elements and intelligences were and are non created and eternal, and so was, is, and will be God's identity. We are called his children because we are his children. Quite simple, yet profound.

No, God is responsible for your actions under some "God rules of heaven", which I don't know about. God gave you agency (free will plus accountability) and a chance at movement on this earth, kind of like a teenager who is driving has someone (Dad) who is responsible when they mess up. God the Father has His Son Jesus Christ to serve as the atoning sacrifice to pay for our sins, or "accidents" if you will. But when you sin, God does not sin because of the contract, allowing God to still be GOOD, yet he must clean up for your mess with the help of your repentance and the gift from Christ. The reason God had the serpent tempt Eve was because Eve would have said "you made me do it" if he was not removed from the choice.

God did not create (organize) your intelligence, which is who you are at the core. He created a spirit body which your intelligence is given control over. When your parents "procreate" (produce a baby) they create your physical body and God "installs" your spirit (which has as it's control your intelligence that is eternal). You are then an Intelligence, spirit body, and a physical body, all in one. The intelligence is what is eternal and non created and is what is accountable and what makes choices. Upon death, your Intelligence and spirit body go on, are judged at some time and then a new physical body (resurrection) is given to you that exists in one of three "kingdoms".

There are at least 5 matter states discussed in scripture. 1) Intelligence, 2) Spirit, 3) physical (like carbon, hydrogen, etc) , 4) transfirgured (Moses and J smith were reported to have been changed to a new matter state to be able to "see" God), and 5) resurrected matter. Resurrected matter has three main states of matter 1) Celestial, 2) Terrestial, 3) Telestial. They vary in glory like the Sun, Moon and stars, but it is unclear whether they have different "periodic charts" in the resurrection state. God the Father is in the Celestial glory. There is NO Heaven and Hell doctrine in Mormon doctrine, and you can progress (repent) before the resurrection. Outer darkness is when your Intelligence is returned to where it came from, choas (I call it the "hopper" of space"), and very few, such as Satan, will go there. Got that. (Note: the notion of different matter states was just a recent idea in Physics, with multiverses and time as a variable--all from a guy in 1840's America...)

I hope that answered your questions.

(although it does sound to me like "it's turtles all the way down, Mr. Asimov.") But I still don't think you've addressed the free will defense in mainstream Christian doctrine.