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As a mormon
by helba
+1/-2 Reply
As a mormon I found this article to be incredibly offensive and hurtful. I have a very anti-mormon mother and believe me, I have heard it all. Some of it true, some of it not. Are there things I wish didn't happen? Absolutely. Are there things I don't understand? Yep. With that said, it doesn't change the things which I do know to be true (prayer, tithing, family home evening, book of mormon, preisthood blessings, just to name a few.) And that is why I am a mormon.
Re: As a mormon
by StevieN

helba:
...it doesn't change the things which I do know to be true (prayer, tithing, family home evening, book of mormon, preisthood blessings, just to name a few.) And that is why I am a mormon.

The book of mormon describes a vast American civilization for which there is a TOTAL lack of archaeological or DNA evidence. How could you know that it's "true?"

Re: As a mormon
by helba
Personal revelation.
Re: As a mormon
by hyrum13

StevieN: I would like to know your source for this "fact" that you site. I am aware of quite a bit of DNA, and archaeological evidence that supports the Book of Mormon. To name just one, in the 2006 June (I think it was June) issue of US NEWS AND WORLD REPORT, they had a special explorers edition. In it, they used archaelolical finds to show that the ice bridge, Bering strait theory is highly unlikely. According to the article, the Native Americans more likely arrived by BOATS from other parts of the world. So I guess it depends on who you talk to, and how open your mind is. The fact of the matter is, you can find "experts" who will tell you both things, which is why it simply must be put to a question of faith, but to say that it has been proven false, is simply a lie.

By the way, helba: are you sure StevieN isn't your mothers login name?

Re: As a mormon
by Dutch76

Take a look at this article:

<link>

It appeared on MSNBC yesterday.

Re: As a mormon
by progressivebulldog
hyrum13:

I am aware of quite a bit of DNA, and archaeological evidence that supports the Book of Mormon. To name just one, in the 2006 June (I think it was June) issue of US NEWS AND WORLD REPORT, they had a special explorers edition. In it, they used archaelolical finds to show that the ice bridge, Bering strait theory is highly unlikely. According to the article, the Native Americans more likely arrived by BOATS from other parts of the world. So I guess it depends on who you talk to, and how open your mind is.

Please provide your "DNA evidence that supports the book of Mormon." Here's a link to a scientific journal that states what nearly all geneticists will tell you; native americans came from Eastern Asia. <link> Even ancient remains such as "Kennewick Man" are from Asia even though they are listed as "Caucasoid" which may make you think of Europeans but in this case is much closer to people like Japan's native Ainu.

As for your evidence of people coming in boats from other places? Yes this could well be the case but they would have still come from Asia, working their way up North until they reached what is now Alaska before heading south along the North American coast.

There is absolutely no genetic or archaeolgical evidence of Israelites migrating to North America 3,000 years ago.

Re: As a mormon
by StevieN

hyrum13,

The DNA evidence has been copious and irrefutable for over ten years--there are countless sources; find them yourself--it's your religion you need to defend.

You may be more interested in a very recent Salt Lake Tribune article describing how the book of mormon has recently been changed in order to begin the slow dance around its own history that DNA information has forced upon the lds church.

Here is a link for you: <link>

Re: As a mormon
by jul13ann
love you bro and sis for your defense ..we should refer them to a scripture study with the missionaries...since they are very interested to know the trurh!!!!
Re: As a mormon
by mark14
If you are an open minded and good person that is all that matters. The Book of Mormon and Bible both are full of inconsistencies but most religious believers look past the inconsistencies and focus on the religous values. Unfortunately for a substantial minority absolute faith leads to a degree of rigidity and intolerance especially if they think that they have to defend their scriptures in the literal sense and ascibe perfection to their religion's founders rather than belong to a living evolving set of beliefs.
Re: As a mormon
by helba
I am not sure why you seem to have such a problem with me believing the Book of Mormon. Do you spew your venom at those that believe in the Bible or in God? Or do you have something against mormons? I'm not trying to be rude, just enlighten me a little.
Re: As a mormon
by StevieN

helba:
I am not sure why you seem to have such a problem with me believing the Book of Mormon...

I'm not sure what gave you that idea.

I have a problem with people DECLARING the inviolate truth of their religion in public, and then getting HUFFY when someone informs them that their beliefs appear objectively silly.

The moment you begin declaring your beliefs in public you begin trying to INFLUENCE people. Xian groups (which mormons fall loosely under) are particularly OBNOXIOUS about this, because they see themselves as COMMANDED by their master from outer space to SELL their religions far and wide.

When you do that you have to accept that some people will ask "What is this CRAP you're trying to sell me?" Mormons especially must expect this, because their religion is notoriously bizarre--and very suggestive of having been invented by a con man.

Re: As a mormon
by helba
Seriously, what is your problem? I am not trying to influence anyone. I was just simply saying that I believe the Book of Mormon to be true and that is why I am a mormon. Do you flip out like this everytime you hear someone talk about God having a hand in their life? Well you probably should since that would be a declaration of their beliefs in public. How dare they try to sell such "CRAP" to you. Maybe Hyrum was right and you are my mother.
Re: As a mormon
by StevieN

helba:
Seriously, what is your problem? I am not trying to influence anyone. I was just simply saying that I believe the Book of Mormon to be true and that is why I am a mormon. Do you flip out like this everytime you hear someone talk about God having a hand in their life? Well you probably should since that would be a declaration of their beliefs in public. How dare they try to sell such "CRAP" to you. Maybe Hyrum was right and you are my mother.

Let's see now....Mr. Hitchens wrote an article giving substantive reasons why some questions seem pertinent to Mitt Romney regarding the influence of his religion on his potential presidency. He used as a backdrop for that his well-known disdain for religion (he has written a book about it).

YOU piped up and said what he wrote was extremely OFFENSIVE.

And then I joined in and said your ideas were silly.

You're not trying to suggest that only YOU have a right to criticize the ideas and opinions of others, are you? That seems to be what it adds up to.

Re: As a mormon
by hthalljr

Arguments that DNA "proves" the Book of Mormon false are based on knowingly deceptive interpretations of science and upon the absurd straw-man argument that the Book of Mormon teaches that Lehi, Sariah, Zoram, Ishmael, and the wife of Ishmael, plus Mulek and the unknown number of his party, are the sole ancestors of Native Americans. The Book of Mormon does not teach this, any more than the Bible teaches that Abraham and Sarah are the sole ancestors of all Jews. (It does teach that Ruth, the Moabitess, was an ancestor of David.) Nor does the Book of Mormon teach that the Nephites and Lamanites were ever the sole inhabitants of the American continent.

DNA studies of the origins of peoples are in their infancy. Scientists so far are mostly harvesting the low-hanging fruit of Y- and mitochondrial DNA, which represent only the purely paternal and maternal lines at the outside edge of our family tree. Because our pedigree doubles in size with each previous generation (until the probability of intermarriage of distant cousins trims its size and even shrinks it), we each have thousands of ancestors. So our purely paternal and maternal line ancestors contributed only a tiny fraction of one percent of our total genetic makeup.

It is almost a mathematical certainty that the founders of the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations have no purely paternal or no pure maternal descendants alive today, so Y- and m- DNA studies can't say whether Lehi et. al. or Mulek et. al. are ancestors among thousands of other possible lines. In like manner, it is almost a mathematical certainty that sooner or later my son's son's son's . . . son will fail to have a son. Only one of my 14 grandchildren (so far) carries my Y- chromosome. But I hope that many generations from now I will nevertheless have many descendants among thousands of possible random combinations of son to daughter to daughter to son, etc.

So DNA science, in its present state, can not "prove" that the founders named in the Book of Mormon could not be among the ancestors of many or perhaps even most Native Americans.

Moreover, there is no possible control group for what "typical DNA" for an "Israelite" living around 600 BCE would even look like. Even if there was a uniform genetic pool in the kingdom of Judah at the time, it has long since been thoroughly stirred by migration and intermarriage. The only known "characteristically Jewish DNA" is the male (Y) Cohen modal haplotype -- the purely paternal line of the small priestly caste, which has been maintained far above gentile probability by strict observance of Jewish law. On the female side, Scholars agree that another aspect of Jewish law, that allows for the conversion of gentile wives, has completely muddled the maternal lines of modern Jews, who typically have taken on the dominant genetic characteristics of the nations among whom their ancestors were dispersed. There are even black Lemba in South Africa who have the Cohen modal haplotype.

There were no Levites or Cohens in Lehi's group: they observed the Law of Moses under the Melchizedek, rather than under the Levitical Priesthood.

As for DNA evidence "for" the Book of Mormon, at least one common gene does, in fact, exist between present-day Native Americans and present-day Jews: the "X" haplotype.

<link>

For those who really want to understand the science, read this article by the Latter-day Saint scientist who "wrote the book" on forensic DNA typing:

<link>

Tracy Hall Jr

hthalljr'gmail'com

Re: As a mormon
by StevieN

hthalljr,

You typify religious apologists, and mormon apologists in particular--the most egregious of the lot.

It is ABUNDANTLY known that mormon doctrine has considered American Indians to be the descendants of lamanites. There are many records of Joseph Smith referring directly to comtemporaneous Indians as "lamanites." Mormon missionaries have been instructed to point to similarity of noses between Indians and Jews. The list is simply, ENDLESS. That you step up and MAKE BELIEVE that is not true is beyond pathetic; it is patently deceitful as well.

The best "evidence" of all is the WHOLLY IRREFUTABLE FACT that your own scripture committee has decided to CHANGE wording in the preface to the BOM in order to better fit with current DNA results. <link>

There has been an considerable amount of mormon lying occurring on this forum. Simply disgusting.

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