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Is their such a thing as "unqualifications?"
by thundercracker
It's weird that even in this day and age, we get "I don't know these video game thingages" type articles? Really? Slate coudln't find one intern that has both been in a band and played video games beyond Mario Bros? C'mon guys, this is the newest and most important new media of the 21st century. I couldn't write a movie review starting with "I don't watch movies, so what's the deal with those weird mvoies the Coen Bros make?"

But to add something to the discussion, the main main draw of Rock Band is time-sink versus payoff. You could spend a thousand hours and not have a band that could even play half as good as the tracks on Rock Band. On the other hand, you can invest half-an-hour and feel half the joy of being a real band. Plus, you can do it with friends.

This is a short-sighted and myopic article, much like asking "Why not spend get a pilot's license instead of playing flight simulator" or "Why not become a master of martial arts instead of playing mortal kombat." Real life can be rewarding, but often tedious, frustrating, and demanding. A lot people want to rock out with buddies for a night, not re-order their whole lives.
Re: Is their such a thing as "unqualifications?"
by maroci
If you want a review written by a 21-year-old video game expert/addict you can find any number of web sites and magazines dedicated to just that sort of review on your local newstands. That's not what Slate does, and it's not Slate's audience. I thought this, written by an adult who has been in a real rock band, was an interesting perspective.
Re: Is their such a thing as "unqualifications?"
by Sickday

"Adult with interesting perspective" = Carrie sniffing about authenticity.

I'm a huge Sleater-Kinney fan, but man did I hate her tone here. I'm over 30, but it's always amazing to me to find that people just a few years older than me have this ridiculous gripe about games and 'the real'. There's so much to talk about in terms of the pure joy of musical mechanics, of mastering something complex -- of why doing something in time is fun and can set your brain on fire. Instead I got a story about how the marketing guy was lame (sigh) and how games keep people apart. It's like arguing that DDR is inferior to the pure, windswept beauty of dancing alone on a desert road. I mean, sure, but in DDR there's a score. You can get combos. Doing the crossword is inferior to reading the Great Gatsby, too, huh?

Christ, are Xers going to be this crotchety and romantic in their old ages?

Re: Is their such a thing as "unqualifications?"
by thundercracker
maroci:

This is precisely the attitude that's wrong with MSM journalism and video games.  Here's a small list:

Movies
Toys
Reading
Television
National Park attendence
Traditional games

This is just a sample list of activities/industries that have been severly disrupted, and whose decline has been attributed to video games.

For better or worse, while every other medium is flailing, gaming is a medium on the ascent.  I don't want Slate to get some hardcore geek to gush about every bump-map and bit.  I want someone who at least understands the basic point of video games.  At least someone who can't say this line with a straight face:

"When I looked carefully, I realized I was having a party where people were sitting around playing video games."

To anyone under 30, this sentence would such a non-sequitor that even coherent response would be hard to muster.  It's a sentiment that makes those wacky people who were mortified by Elvis' gyrating hips
seem positively insightful.


Re: Is their such a thing as "unqualifications?"
by Puckish

I see your point about the interesting perspective and I agreed in my previous post in regards to this.I think you may be a bit off on some of your other statements though. Contrary to belief, not every person who loves video games is very young or very addicted. You may not actually believe in this generality, but your statements have a leaning towards the stereotype.

Though Slate does skew to an older, more mature or worldly audience, those people can like video games too! You say it was written by an adult as if that was a quaint novelty. Have you read many video game magazines or reviews? A lot of them are actually (gasp) adults.

We're in an age where the geeks and gamers have grown up and they still love to be geeks and gamers. I have cousins that are younger than The Simpsons series and the Nintendo console. These are cousins who ask if a Pocket Rocker was something like an iPod. The people who grew up with these iconic nerd bits are now having children of their own and careers. I used to play the MMO Dark Age of Camelot at night and then write a college paper before class. Now I play the MMO World of Warcraft and worry about my 401k.


Though I do enjoy the unique perspective of the article, I would hardly call it a video game review as it is an opinion piece. You wouldn't ask a person who has never really seen movies before to do a movie review on the next big blockbuster and take it as expert advice in the same way that I wouldn't take a person unfamiliar with the video game industry to do a review of one of the biggest games of the year.


The Slate audience may be broader and more diverse than you imagine.

Re: Is their such a thing as "unqualifications?"
by tuesdaynite
The point of the article is that the author is a real musician pretending to be one in a video game. I had a friend who was a pilot, and even though he enjoyed playing flight simulators, he never passed up a chance to fly a real plane to a real place. The folks I know who are heavy into martial arts will always prefer to spar with real opponents and participate in real tournaments than play video games. And if given a chance to play Rock Band with friends, it might be fun -- as long as it wasn't on Wednesday night, when I practice with my real band. We may not sound as good as Rock Band, but it's more fun...
Re: Is their such a thing as "unqualifications?"
by melisma
"I had a friend who was a pilot, and even though he enjoyed playing flight simulators, he never passed up a chance to fly a real plane to a real place. The folks I know who are heavy into martial arts will always prefer to spar with real opponents and participate in real tournaments than play video games."

Exactly. That's why video games are seldom targeted at people who are real-life practitioners of whatever it is the video game helps one pretend to do. This is also why it seems silly to me to publish an article whose main idea is "member of actual rock band doesn't get a whole lot out of playing Rock Band." Really? I never would have guessed.

If Slate wants to publish an article pointing out something so obvious and intuitive, that's one thing, but what really got me about the article was that the author questioned (disingenuously, I think) why anyone drawn to Rock Band wouldn't just start their own real band instead. Oh, I dunno...No talent? No time? No desire to live on a tour bus? Family? Career? A thousand other reasons?

If you want to make the obvious point that Rock Band doesn't particularly appeal to people in rock bands, go ahead, but don't imply that that means it shouldn't appeal to other people.
Re: Is their such a thing as "unqualifications?"
by thundercracker
I consider this idea to be a straw-man.  No one, gamer or not, makes the case that the game can be as exciting as the reality.  However, to focus on this is to have a biased argument that discounts all the strengths of gaming against its weakness versus reality.

Of course reality is more fun.  I used to do martial arts and I've never felt more alive than sparring.  However, this payoff had the thrust of years of training behind it, with the occassional injury, and ate up most of my free time.

Playing Naruto: Clash of the Ninja doesn't come close to the real benefits of martial arts, 
but I can play it as recreation with friends, instead of a lifestyle, and I can quantifiably say that a good bout is perhaps 40% of the excitement of the real thing.

Plus the obvious fact that unless I shanghai my best friends into years of rigorous training
I can't expect to spar in real-life with them with the same competitive vigor.

I think what I'm trying to say is that the MSM shouldn't try to out-geek gamin sites.  That's
a losing proposition.  However, they can definitely write about this emerging medium and
put it in the context of society, our individual lives, and the future(s) of the arts.  That's value-added.

Plus, I dispute the point that an ex-rocker is more objectively able to write this article.
After all, a game designer could definitely say "Yeah, being in a band is probably the best."  Whereas, a person whose ego and identity are more built into music probably could never reach the opposite conclusion about gaming.
Re: Is their such a thing as "unqualifications?"
by RGS

I read Slate now and again and even occasionally get hooked into discussions - often about music - I think King of Kong was the best documentary and second-best movie I've seen this year (after Once).

What's curious to me about this game is that the hardware outlay isn't much less than it would be for the real thing. I've played paying music gigs on a bass-and-amp rig that cost me less than $700. I bet I could do it for $500. I don't think I'm going to get onto a race bike in a real race for that. I'm not sure what a ticket to a distant planet and a lazer ray gun are going for these days.

I have pals who love karaoke and fantasy leagues and more power to them. I don't watch much American Idol.

So...this was the article I was interested in reading. If you're bugged that Carrie Brownstein (of all people) stands up for Doing It Yourself, imagine what Mike Watt would say.

Re: Is their such a thing as "unqualifications?"
by VitM

I think my two biggest problems with the review were that she had no idea what she was talking about (from a video gaming perspective) and that she couldn't appear to concede that many people will probably find the game more enjoyable, more fun, and more preferable to spending hundreds of hours learning to play the real thing and the often-dirty reality of life as a professional musician.

As she is purportedly an artist, I am suprised that she is so souless as to deny someone the pleasure of pretend.

Re: Is their such a thing as "unqualifications?"
by Sickday
In Tetris, the goal is to pretend to build a wall.
Re: Is their such a thing as "unqualifications?"
by Dreamweapon
Sickday:

"Adult with interesting perspective" = Carrie sniffing about authenticity.

I'm a huge Sleater-Kinney fan, but man did I hate her tone here. I'm over 30, but it's always amazing to me to find that people just a few years older than me have this ridiculous gripe about games and 'the real'. There's so much to talk about in terms of the pure joy of musical mechanics, of mastering something complex -- of why doing something in time is fun and can set your brain on fire. Instead I got a story about how the marketing guy was lame (sigh) and how games keep people apart. It's like arguing that DDR is inferior to the pure, windswept beauty of dancing alone on a desert road. I mean, sure, but in DDR there's a score. You can get combos. Doing the crossword is inferior to reading the Great Gatsby, too, huh?

Christ, are Xers going to be this crotchety and romantic in their old ages?


Great post, Sickday--it reflects precisely the same response I felt upon reading this. I too loved S-K back in the day, but Brownstein's tone throughout this article could easily be taken as sneering and dismissive. So she doesn't "get" videogames, or doesn't hold them to be any great shakes. So what? Comically, back when I was in school and tried to learn guitar, one of the first and only songs I could ever manage to play competently was S-K's own "Good Things" from "Call the Doctor". I will tell you all without shame that I straight up sucked. I have severely damaged the ligament structure in my hands and fingers through years of basketball (post player/rebound machine), martial arts (shotokan) and rugby (prop), so my technique was never any good b/c I simply couldn't get past my inherent physical limitations. Still, I could pretty well nail that thing, so, really, I have to question just how advanced their own song structure and abilities were. They were a simple three-piece post-punk outfit; there were no Randy Rhodeses, Joe Satrianis or Yngwie Malmsteens in Sleater-Kinney. So, that right there cuts against the somewhat arrogant approach she takes.

While I have a PS3 and a 360, I will not be buying Rock Band or GH3 or any of their ilk. That said, it's not because I look down on those games, it's just because I think other games (namely sports games and shooters) are more fun and more worthy of my time, and I also hate shelling out big bucks for specialized novelty controllers. Would people be better served by dedicating time spent playing Rock Band to actually learning an instrument? Possibly. There is a cost-benefit analysis to be conducted in each individual's case; for most casual players, it seems self-evident that Rock Band will cost a fraction of the price of a decent real instrument, nevermind the outlandish expense of lessons, which from my experience were typically in the neighborhood of $50/hour where I went to school (Madison, WI). Plus, it takes a long time for adults to pick up the ins and outs and instruments. If I had kids, I would push them towards the real thing, but its really folly to presume that a typical American adult, with a job (remembering that Americans work more hours per capita than any other industrialized nation on earth save South Korea), a mortgage, a dog, maybe kids, whatever, has the time and money needed to become competent with a guitar, bass, whatever. If it were that easy, I suspect there would be very few "professional" musicians making a living practicing their art (who would need them any longer?), so they should be grateful for the learning curve.

Is it as cool as the real thing? Nah, I suppose not. Like I said, I played b-ball for years and was pretty decent--good enough to start or serve as sixth man for some decent organized teams, some of which won conference championships. Do I still play the "NBA 2k" series when the mood strikes? You'd better believe it. I stopped growing at 6', and am stocky as can be. I have never performed an unassisted dunk (one not involving either a short rim or the use of a close wall or trampoline) in my life, and having now passed 30, I have no hope that I ever will. So being able temporarily control a D-Wade or AI or KG, and throw down all kinds of well choreographed and animated dunks, is a blast. Similarly, my friends all work. All of them. Unlike certain Special Musician People, none of us have the luxury of a bohemian existence. So, being able to easily get together with a buddy, in person or on XBLive, and instantly play a game or two, without having to beg, intimidate or cajole a critical mass of other players into showing up, is a real boon. Someone else talked about how their friends who were into martial arts always preferred a real match to a videogame. Well, I suppose. But is that to say none of them ever stooped to playing a SFII, Tekken or Virtua Fighter? I highly doubt it. Even if you were the biggest MA fanatic on Earth, your body can only withstand so much. If your friends are just competing in the silly and pointless kata routines advanced by many of the shyster MA organizations in this country, sure, they could do that all day into their 80s. But if they are practically real kumite, against competent opponents, this is only slightly less taxing on a body than boxing. I used to wake up after intense sparring bouts with my entire upper body covered with sickly-looking yellow bruises. Once a gf of mine saw these and actually cried. Some days it would take me half an hour just to get out of bed. It was fun as hell back in the day, but nowadays, with a demanding job and a slowing immune system, I think I'll be content with some VF5, thank you.

Also, to those who complain about how videogames are killing other media, well, maybe the other media sucks. I would submit that most gamers are well aware of their alternative entertainment options, but choose gaming above television, film or books because they find the experience more rewarding. There is a growing stack of evidence which strongly suggests that games far exceed passive viewing in terms of tangible benefits like hand-eye coordination, fine motor skills, logical problem solving, and spatial perception. I would refer those interested to the study conducted by Beth-Israel a couple of years ago which found that game-playing surgeons conducted operations more quickly and with less errors than their non-playing brethren. Besides, there is no law saying you can't have your fingers in all these pots, as many of us do.

A nice enough concept for a review, and the choice of reviewer was pure gold on paper, but this was really poorly executed. Most audiences don't like to be talked down at, especially by those who are essentially neophytes at the subject matter in question, as Ms. Brownstein plainly is.

Re: Is their such a thing as "unqualifications?"
by Dreamweapon
Also, I just want to add that South Park just addressed this issue a few weeks ago in its "Guitar Queer-o" episode, featuring Randy's wonderful cover of a Kansas song, with far more levity and wit.
Re: Is their such a thing as "unqualifications?"
by thelyamhound

Still, I could pretty well nail that thing, so, really, I have to question just how advanced their own song structure and abilities were. They were a simple three-piece post-punk outfit; there were no Randy Rhodeses, Joe Satrianis or Yngwie Malmsteens in Sleater-Kinney.

Yeah, but who actually listens to anything Rhodes, Satriani, or Malmsteens do anymore? At least if you'd said Fripp, Eno, or Waters, you'd be touching on someone that's made a nick in the canon.

Complexity of art doesn't always speak to its quality or transcendence (or we'd revere Heaven's Gate over La Strada).

I grok you, though, regarding the general crankiness of tone.

Re: Is their such a thing as "unqualifications?"
by Dreamweapon
Ay--I actually love Eno, he's one of my favorite musicians of all-time and some of his ambient work (esp. "Apollo") served as the soundtrack to some of the greatest moments of my life. I guess I was just looking for examples of pyrotechnics in the more traditional, straightforward "rock" sense. Fripp is ok. Waters is overrated, IMO.
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