Last week you write some crazy Seinfeld rant, and this week you make a perfectly reasonable argument. I don't wanna agree with a Seinfeld-hater, but I have to this time. Plus, it gives me an opportunity to say something that's been on my mind for awhile...

Patriotism gives me the creeps. This country was based on the idea of NOT trusting the government or its power. I shouldn't pledge allegiance to the government; it should pledge allegiance to me. Government exists for the people; not the other way around. It definitely shouldn't be fostering a love for itself in the hearts and minds of children by forcing them to recite an oath of loyalty.

Politicians should recite a pledge to the people every morning. School children should be finishing their homework before class.

Ahem. I'll get off my soapbox now and go back to work where I pledge allegiance to my paycheck and the bills to which it is owed.

My sentiments exactly. I don't care much for loyalty oaths under any circumstances.

Of course, voters can choose their candidate on whatever basis they like, and no mainstream candidate is going to speak out against the pledge, the flag, or supporting the troops.

patriotism gives you the creeps!!!!! so i suppose anti patriotism and anti americanism and terrism and all around hostile attitudes toward what made this country great is a sorce of comfort for you, i suppose those things that undermine our unity and our pride and our desire to overcome in times of hardship are what make you smile at night...you sound like a special piece of work...btw that paycheck you pledge alligance to, cost alot of patriots their lives so you can have the freedom to earn it...im stunned by the complete mindlessness of your statements..

...and that ladies and gentlemen is why it gives me the creeps. It isn't an either/or proposition. Because I don't like blind nationalism, I apparently find comfort in terrorism.

dandjob is pretty creepy with: "those things that undermine our unity and our pride and our desire to overcome in times of hardship are what make you smile at night..."

Our Unity? exactly what do you mean by that? We should all be the same? Pride. That's a supposed to be a good thing, pride? I thought it was one of the 7 deadly sins and goeth before a fall, as the Good Book says. Overcome what? And what are our hardships? $3 per gallon gas doesn't make the cut in my book of hardships.

its not blind nationalism...its an acknoledgment that the nation with which you live and owe your existance to, is worth some degree of respect, if we are all just here to work and collect a paycheck then what...what do you think those people are doing in DC and why...are they up there just for fun...they all could have chosen to sit at home and not have gotten involved,..same with the military...they are not blind sheep like you think...they all could have sat at home and did nothing for nobody but themselves...and if our founding fathers decided to just sit at home and do nothing where would we be...where would you be?...you take oaths because you want to not because you have to...if you cant bring your self to take an oath to defend this nation and your protected way of life...then perhaps you need to reevaluate where you want to live...but its aparently ok to sit at home and let others do the dirty work...in my opinion...its selfish and a little sad that you would be so concerned about having to say an oath or a pledge of alligance because some perceived fear that if you do, you will forever be required to obey the evil empire and all of us that do do it blindly without any thought of the implications...seems silly doesnt it...ok so the terrorism remark was a little harsh.

pull your self away from that selfabsorbing mirror you are aparently glued to and crack a newspaper ...or even better read a history book...there are wars, katrina, wild fires, floods global warming, aids, nuclear weapons in Pakistan, umm the list goes on and on...what planet are you on?....btw pride in what you do and where you are from is not a deadly sin...if you must quote the bible...try reading it first. and unity implies working together toward a common goal...not acting or looking the same...for instance a football team has unity...the INDIVIDUAL players work in concert to win the game...each having their own place within the team...and when they sign their contracts...they are in fact taking an oath of sorts ..to not play for the opposition etc...the only creepy thing here...is your ignorance!

Well, I'll go along with some of what you're saying. I guess I should say that superficial patriotism gives me the creeps - the flag fetishists, if you will. We're probably just doing semantics here. I'm all for loving and supporting the ideals and spirit that this country (at its best) represents. But a deep and abiding love for a nation simply because you were born there just seems silly to me.

To use your football analogy. The players sign contracts. They agree to play for the team if they are paid handsomely. If they aren't paid, they don't play. They don't swear allegiance to the team; they make a deal. Well, that's how government is. We have a contract. I'll give the government certain powers if it will protect me and my rights. If it doesn't do that, then the contract is null and void. Swearing allegiance to those in power just seems... well... wrong. I don't feel I owe the government any more than that.

(However, I definitely owe the ideals of freedom and the people that protect those freedoms a great deal - whether they be American or otherwise. I just don't necessarily equate those with the government I just pledged allegiance to. Does that make sense?)

Now, obviously, the pledge of allegiance isn't the biggest problem on my radar. But since it was brought up, the notion that I should pledge my allegiance to the government seems completely at odds with freedom.

im on the same page basically, however i would like to make a couple points,

"Swearing allegiance to those in power just seems... well... wrong. I don't feel I owe the government any more than that. "

there have been no pledges to any spacific indivduals or governmental entities that the average civilian were required to make that i can recall...the pledge is to the nation and to symbols of those "ideals"you spoke of,.. not the government,...this point is relivant when we elect those that want to run our government;

"Of course, voters can choose their candidate on whatever basis they like, and no mainstream candidate is going to speak out against the pledge, the flag, or supporting the troops."

the reason for this is simply...why would you want to elect someone who isnt willing swear allegiance to the government they are wanting to run....makes you wonder where are their allegiances lie, it wouldnt be with you.. could you trust that individual to have your intrest in mind or this nations interests, i couldnt ...if a football player refuses to sign a contract then they cant play with the team, why?...because there is no garantee that an unsigned player will even show up, let alone play on the same level as the other players,.... so the pledge is certianly mutually benificial...and self sustaining,

when one side fails then the whole thing falls apart...we see the results of that now...and when the generations that have grown up without making a pledge to this country, get in power where will we find our intrests then,.. in china?(oh...isnt it there already?)...then that contract with the government will be a shallow one indeed

and we are on a fast track there...before my time JFK once sied.."ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"....is that the way we think these days? hardly...modern libralism teaches us the opposite...mainly because the goal is to make us all dependant on the government and less self-reliant....the more we want the government to do for us the more we need it to survive and the more dependant we become, there are examples of this trend everywhere you look...buyer beware

because then those ideals of freedom and perserverance and yes national pride...will disolve in a sea of superficiality and apathy

danjdob, you continue to creep me out. You mention pride in yourself and your own actions but you don't seem to have any individual goals. Everything you say is about self-sacrifice for the good of the state. Common goals for everyone, as though 285 million people could have a common goal like a 40 member football team. Your common goals would appear to be defined as "whatever the government tells me to do". Were you so loyal during the Clinton administration?

That is SO communist I can't believe it. They all stand up and pledge allegiance to Dear Leader or some political book or some flag in those commie nations like Cuba and N. Korea. I don't see any difference in you. You want to tell everyone else what to do, which is to think alike, act alike and never question the government. You are really scary.

you have no idea what my individual goals are...the two are distinctly different, and you know it,... its rediculous to assume that its imposible to serve the "common good" and not have personal goals....thats like saying that everyone who is in politics and in the government are robots and have nothing better to do with their spare time than to salute the flag and serve you...again there have been many instances where the people of this nation have and continue to have common goals, like i seid earlier...read a history book, crack a newspaper, its all there,... though i would agree that common goals are rare today because its all about me me me.

"You want to tell everyone else what to do, which is to think alike, act alike and never question the government. You are really scary."....where do i say in anything that ive written here that i want you to think or act alike and never question the government...did you even read what i wrote at all?

...i found it amusing that you would throw in the communism card....thats just silly....if i wanted communism...i would vote democrat instead of indipendant,...

the fact is during the Clinton administration i served in the military inspite of not having voted for him,....clearly he had his personal goals as did i..all the while saying the pledge of allegiance during every state function that required it...and i know that he continues to say the pledge..even tho its not a requirement...creepy huh?

i certianly believe as you, that blind nationalism is not a good thing...WWII germany is a prime example of nationalism gone bad....but dont throw out the baby with the bath water...Our nation is the prime example of the balance between nationalism, pride, dissent and scrutiny of our leaders, which has made a reasonably pleasant place for us to live,.. perfect no, but pleasant non the less...it diserves respect....finally i could care less if you ever say the pledge of alligance or not, or salute a flag etc... you have that right...my arguments are the reasons why you should. take a deep breath,.. and say it slowly to yourself, i promise you wont pass out...and then go volunteer somewhere and make a difference someonelses life other than your own.

Personally I"m happy to say the pledge. Doesn't bother me at all.

So the USA is the perfect balance of nationalism, pride, dissent and scrutiny of our leaders. Funny how you think that, being an American. You believe it so strongly you are willing to force other nations to be like the USA (though not as rich or powerful, and of course without having nukes). Funny how your world view of the USA as the perfect shining beacon all others must follow or die.

Imagine what you'd believe if you'd been born and raised in Saudi Arabia.