I find today's letters boring, but the posters here astute, so I'm throwing out a question of my own. I'm asking not about my friend's marriage -- obviously, it's THEIR marriage -- but as to how I can be a good friend through the turmoil. I will try and keep this to the bare facts: My best friend of 16 years has been married for 10 years. We are all friends, and I used to socialize/vacation with them on a regular basis until distance and life changes reduced our contact to mostly phone calls, so I don't know as much as I wish I did. I understand they began having problems about 4 years ago, beginning with her medical issues that affected their sex life. She has told me since that there was an instance of "near-infidelity" at that time, and she also hinted that he becomes violent when he is drinking. But she became pregant during this rough time, and they stuck it out. But their marriage has never fully recovered, partially because he refused to see a counselor. They finally did, a couple times, and then he stopped going (he had a childhood full of counselors etc. and has no faith in them ) and also held it against her -- e.g., "I went for you, what more do you want?". Since the baby was born, he has been completely passive father. He would work all day, come home drunk, play video games in another room, and go to bed while she was putting the baby down. He refused to help with anything. Before the baby was born, he expressed fears about becoming his own father, a heavy drinker and distant father.... now, in his depressed and sulky moments, he seems to accept that he has! About six months ago, when the child was two, she had had enough -- he wouldn't stop drinking, see a counselor, or help out at all. So she went to stay at a relative's home an hour away, refusing to return until he addressed those issues. They've had regular contact throughout -- she brings the kid to visit, and stays there for short periods of time -- but he hasn't made any efforts, and still refuses to talk about her requests (except false promises about no alcohol in the house). And, on top of it all, she's been pregnant with their 2nd child through the whole separation. I think that was the clincher for her -- she simply couldn't go through his non-partnership with another child. But she also wants, above all, for their family to stay intact, and believed he felt the same way. Well, the other night he said something that just broke her, truly, for the first time. She is preparing for a home birth and wants to do it at the home they share. She asked him to buy a hose for this process and he turned on her and said, "I told you, I'm against this home birth, I don't want to know or hear anything about it, ever," and then, in response to her protestation, "...and you're STILL talking about it." He then left the room, and she was devastated. So, she posted her story online for the first time ever, seeking advice, and the overwhelming majority told her to leave him. This is something I've felt all along -- I know his insecurities/issues, and I grew up with an alcoholic father -- but I never dared say it cuz I knew she wanted it to work out. But now, with the validation of others, and further revelations about his violence when drinking, I'm thinking I should say "get the hell out" too?! Or what? Please advise!

Yes, she should get the hell out. No one deserves to be hit or live in fear anticipating his next blow-up. Such a marriage is not good for the children either. For boys, it teaches them that disrespecting women is okay and that women are here to serve men. For girls, it teaches them that this is what men do- get drunk, hit their wives and have no part in raising the kids and don't do "women's work". And most girls from abusive homes end up marrying an abuser as well. Tell her if she doesn't leave the jerk for herself, leave him for the sake of her kids.

Paragraphs are your friend. :-)

Tell your friend to decide what she truly "wants above all." I'm guessing it's not for her to raise two kids not just alone, but against active opposition from her husband. The "intact family" that she imagines ain't gonna happen.

She's already moved out, now she needs a lawyer.

Thanks, ElleBlue, you are absolutely right. I think that was just what I needed to hear. I'm too close to the situation, and enabling her in enabling him, I guess. The kid-factor should be a no-brainer. Horribly ironic when staying together 'for' the kids. THANKS.

"Paragraphs are your friend." You can tell how often I post, I don't even know how to properly quote you! :)

I THOUGHT I typed in paragraphs, then it all came out pblllllhhhhhhh.

The average DV victim leaves her husband seven times before she's gone for good. In the mean time, she's been effectively abandoned by everyone in her life who couldn't tolerate her ambivalence in the face of continuing maltreatment (usually about everybody), leaving him, paradoxically, as her most reliable source of support.

If she's determined to be with him, then she'll be with him. If she perceives that your friendship relies on her leaving him, then when she abandons it, it'll further bind her to him. I would refrain from giving her advice, unless you've just gotten to the point it's too painful to hear about it anymore. Then, I'd be straight up with her about it.

The guy certainly sounds like a sad case, and his dislike of counselors is truly unfortunate. He may be able to find a men's group that could circumvent some of that. AA is always a good place to start.

But he's unlikely to do any of that, unless he's coerced into it. "The one who doesn't care is the one who's in charge of the relationship." She needs to start looking after herself, and quit caring about him so much.

It's actually her best bet for bringing him around.

Yup, sometimes staying together "for the kids" is actually worse for the kids than separating. Kids are probably scarred stiff, when their father is in a drunken rage. A lot of kids begin doing badly in school, hiding their "secret" from friends (which keeps them from forming real friendships) and they grow up being fearful and untrusting. The kids will only lose out if she stays with him.

What a depressing statistic. I believe it, having worked in shelters before -- which is why I feel idiotic for asking this question. Fortunately, she has a strong family support network, and options, so I'm praying she will be the exception. And I agree I shouldn't push her, but worry I am being a bad friend by not expressing sufficient concern about the violence issue.

what they really want is for you to provide them with the interpersonal space in which they can sort out their own feelings about whatever is troubling them.

If you want to provide this, you have to be able to get out of the way - keep your feelings out of it long enough for them to experience and express theirs. Find yourself unable to contain a strong emotional reaction to what's being said, and you're not the person to do that job.

That, however, is what therapists are supposed to be for. As a friend, it doesn't have to be in your job description. Focus on her feelings, and your feelings of concern for her, and express those. This is not supposed to cost you too much, and if it is, it's not a job you should be doing.

Good luck, though.

Emotionally, he's already left. She needs to accept that her marriage isn't what she had hoped it would be, have the baby at a hospital, birthing center, or her mother's or sister's home, and consult a lawyer. See the lawyer first. Some states won't let her divorce till after the birth. Some won't let his name be put on the birth certificate if they aren't married on the day the baby's born.

I'm guessing she has actually talked to him about the home-birth thing?

And she doesn't need that loser around to have a perfectly great home birth. I had both of mine at home. All you need is a good CNM and some friends who can coach.

UCB, this thing with paragraphs happens sometimes so it's not your fault :)

As far as advice, I agree with the other posters but I just have a couple of things to add for your consideration.

If you do advise her to leave this man, there is a danger that she will get back together with him and then distance herself from you. She might try to fool herself that her marriage is working out and you might serve as a reminder of all the problems with it. Inside she will know you are right.

What you can do is sort of give advice without actually giving it, let her do the talking, steer her in the right direction and hopefully she will arrive at the right conclusion. Then just let her know you support her very strongly in her decision. I would also focus the conversation on what is better for her children.

I wish you and your friend the best of luck.

You said "Well, the other night he said something that just broke her, truly, for the first time. She is preparing for a home birth and wants to do it at the home they share. She asked him to buy a hose for this process"

I will assume there is a lot left out of the story, but what's there is truly frightening. She is preparing for a home birth with a man she cannot trust to be sober let alone helpful, and who did not ever agree to the home birth process. So she asked him to buy a hose for the process.....what exactly about a home birth would require a hose? Wait, I don't want to know.

She doesn't just need to leave him, she needs to learn to recognize and accept reality. She was willing to risk her life and the baby's life for some hippie fantasy, with a noncooperative partner. I see Social Workers and Law Enforcement personnel in her future.

Yikes, that's a harsh take! Though I can see how "home birth" and "hose" might throw some for a loop -- and is a whole other debate unto itself.

I should've explained better -- they both agreed to the home birth months ago, and both had to sign documents for it. But apparently he is 'easily grossed out' and anticipates a home birth as grosser than a hospital. My take on the comment was as a hurtful and intentional rejection of her, her values, and her pregnancy and his role in it -- which, as another poster mentioned, seems like he's already checked out....

But you may have put a partial finger on his diminishing tolerance of her 'liberal' ways.

Thanks for the reminder, it's so hard to remain objective. Especially with my own anger at the husband, also a friend, for destroying himself and his family. But I have held my tongue thus far....