I don't think it truly exists, though it's manifestation is real. I tend to think it is some sort of mental state reached in meditation that gives the person a feeling a euphoria. That state of euphoria is induced from the activation of various brain chemicals. The effect would be similar to doing drugs. The state could only be reached by stilling the mind in some manner.

To be sure on the other hand, it doesn't mean it's application is without merit. For example, many ancient Hindus used Haoma, a plant-based drug, to basically get high in order to communicate with the divine, or Shamans in the case of using similar plants. I don't necessarily think it is entirely about not really communicating with the divine because you're basically using drugs, because these Shamans seem to have come up with interesting medicines that do not seem to have been derived from trial and error (e.g. they would have to experiment with about a million species of plants, and experiment was combinations - that would take more than their lifetime). So in some manner, I would not rule out that they haven't communicated in some manner with the divine or even with plants in some really weird way (not really communicate in the normal sense but to gain insight in some manner).

So I would not necessarily rule out a similar case with Nirvana - some sort of tap into the divine. However, bare in mind that, at least to my knowledge, no divine being shared the knowledge of Nirvana with the original Buddha. He merely discovered it on his own and described it in terms of euphoria. (One could see how this could cause an addiction to meditation!) So basically I see Nirvana as like doing drugs - basically getting high. It doesn't mean that doing drugs is necessarily wrong for the application of communicating with the divine. But it does make me suspicious when there's not too much application and point to Nirvana other than reaching a state of euphoria, which basically means getting high. In other words, at least with Shamanism there's a point to getting high - you communicate with the divine. With Nirvana, you merely do it to retreat from the harsh realities of life and to reach the drug-like state of euphoria. After all, one can see this as a sort of psychological medicine with the first Buddha and his struggle against understanding the harshness of life. In reality, the state was merely a retreat from reality and a sleight of hand that is no different than smoking dope to retreat.

Sure I'm somewhat ignorant in the matter, but so what? Is it me, or do they say anything else about Nirvana other than attaching the application of euphoria to it? It's certainly not to communicate with the divine, I believe? It's just to annihilate your sense of self, which you basically do when you get high on the Chronic - loose your sense of self.

When they had thus received the Blessed One, he said: "Do not call the Tathagata by his name nor address him as 'friend,' for he is the Buddha, the Holy One.

The Buddha looks with a kind heart equally on all living beings, and they therefore call him 'Father.' To disrespect a father is wrong; to despise him, is wicked.

"The Tathagata," the Buddha continued, "does not seek salvation in austerities, but neither does he for that reason indulge in worldly pleasures, nor live in abundance. The Tathagata has found the middle path.

"Right views; right aspirations; right speech; right behavior; right livelihood, right effort; right thoughts; and right contemplation.

"This, then, O bhikkhus, is the noble truth concerning the destruction of sorrow. "By the practice of lovingkindness I have attained liberation of heart, and thus I am assured that I shall never return in renewed births.

I have even now attained Nirvana."

And when the Blessed One had thus set the royal chariot wheel of truth rolling onward, a rapture thrilled through all the universes.

The devas left their heavenly abodes to listen to the sweetness of the truth; the saints that had parted from this life crowded around the great teacher to receive the glad tidings; even the animals of the earth felt the bliss that rested upon the words of the Tagathata: and all the creatures of the host of sentient beings, gods, men, and beasts, hearing the message of deliverance, received and understood it in their own language.

And when the doctrine was propounded, the venerable Kondanna, the oldest one among the five bhikkhus, discerned the truth with his mental eye, and he said:

"Truly, O Buddha, our Lord, thou hast found the truth!" Then the other bhikkhus too, joined him and exclaimed: "Truly, thou art the Buddha, thou has found the truth. "

And the devas and saints and all the good spirits of the departed generations that had listened to the sermon of the Tathagata, joyfully received the doctrine and shouted: "Truly, the blessed One has founded the kingdom of righteousness. The Blessed One has moved the earth; he has set the wheel of Truth rolling, which by no one in the universe, be he god or man, can ever be turned back. The kingdom of Truth will be preached upon earth; it will spread; and righteousness, good-will, and peace will reign among mankind."

WHAT IS NIRVANA?

"Revered Nagasena, things produced of karma are seen in the world, things produced of cause are seen, things produced of nature are seen. Tell me what in the world is born not of karma, not of cause, not of nature."

"These two, sire, in. the world are born not of karma, not of cause, not of nature. which two? Ether, sire, and Nirvana."

"Do not, revered Nagasena, corrupt the Conqueror's words and answer the question ignorantly."

"What did I say, sire, that you speak thus to me!"

"Revered Nagasena, what you said about ether - that it is born not of karma nor of cause nor of nature-is right.

But with many a hundred reasons did the Lord, revered Nagasena, point out to disciples the Way to the realization of Nirvana and then you speak thus:

'Nirvana is born of no cause."'

"It is true, sire, that with many a hundred reasons did the Lord point out to disciples the Way to the realization of Nirvana; but he did not point out a cause for the production of Nirvana."

"Well then, sire, attend carefully, listen closely, and I will tell the reason as to this. Would a man, sire, with his natural strength be able to go from here up a high Himalayan mountain?"

'Yes, revered Nagasena."

"But would that man, sire, with his natural strength be able to bring a high Himalayan mountain here.

"Certainly not, revered sir."

"Even so, sire, it is possible to point out the Way for the realization of Nirvana, but impossible to show a cause for the production of Nirvana.

Would it be possible, sire, for a man who, with his natural strength, has crossed over the great sea in a boat to reach the farther shore!"

"Yes, revered sir."

"But would it be possible, sire, for that man, with his natural strength, to bring the farther shore of the great sea here?"

"Certainly not, revered sir."

"Even so, sire, it is possible to point out the Way to the realization of Nirvana, but impossible to show a cause for the production of Nirvana.

For what reason? It is because of the uncompounded nature of the thing." "Revered Nagasena, is Nirvana uncompounded!"

"Yes, sire, Nirvana is uncompounded; it is made by nothing at all.

Sire, one cannot say of Nirvana that it arises or that it does not arise or that it is to be produced or that it is past or future or present, or that it is cognizable by the eye, ear, nose, tongue or body."

"If, revered Nagasena, Nirvana neither arises nor does not arise and so on. as you say. well then, revered Nagasena, you indicate Nirvana as a thing that is not: Nirvana is not."

"Sire, Nirvana is; Nirvana is cognizable by mind; an ariyan-disciple, faring along rightly with a mind that is purified, lofty, straight, without obstructions, without temporal desires, sees Nirvana."

"But what, revered sir, is that Nirvana like that can be illustrated by similes! Convince me with reasons according to which a thing that is can be illustrated by similes."

"Is there, sire, what is called wind?"

"Yes, revered sir."

"Please, sire, show the wind by its color or configuration or as thin or thick or long or short."

"But it is not possible, revered Nagasena, for the wind to be shown; for the wind cannot be grasped in the hand or touched, but yet there is the wind."

"If, sire, it is not possible for the wind to be shown, well then, there is no wind."

"I, revered Nagasena, know that there is wind, I am convinced of it, but I am not able to show the wind."

"Even so, sire, there is Nirvana; but it is not possible to show Nirvana by color or configuration."

"Very good, revered Nagasena, well shown is the simile. well seen the reason: thus it is and I accept it as you say:

There is Nirvana."

...but then, if you had to deal with Courtney Love all the time, you'd probably do drugs, too...:)

. . . true Nirvana is extinction: the removal of self from the cycle of birth and death AFTER one has passed from one's final cycle of physical life. To have "reached" Nirvana is to be ready to leave the wheel once and for all, to know that one is taking one's last spin. That's all, really. Nirvana is knowing that the self is an illusion which will evaporate like smoke into the grand scheme of being, itself the veil over pervasive non-being, at the end of this life.

There's a mistaken assumption on the part of the average Westerner that Nirvana constitutes the end goal of Buddhism; in fact, if one reads the Lotus Sutra (the foundational document of all Mahayana Buddhism), one finds that using the persistent illusion from self from lifetime to lifetime is considered a higher goal than "achieving" extinction. One can take the doctrine of multiple lives literally or not; we Nichiren Buddhists vary in view from individual to individual, but it seems to me that a plurality of us take the whole reincarnation thing fairly metaphorically [and really, if the self/soul is a collection of desires and neuroses tied up in the illusion of the material world, wouldn't even literal reincarnation be experientially negligible?).

I tend to think it is some sort of mental state reached in meditation that gives the person a feeling a euphoria. That state of euphoria is induced from the activation of various brain chemicals. The effect would be similar to doing drugs. The state could only be reached by stilling the mind in some manner.

This phenomenon is more prevalent a goal in Thervada Buddhism than in Mahayana Buddhism, and more prevalent in some forms of Mahayana Buddhism than in others. But it's not really what one is referring to when talking about Nirvana (though, for those sects who practice in this manner, this "euphoria" can count as a sign that one has come to the proper realizations).

[Re: Use of psychoactive substances] So in some manner, I would not rule out that they haven't communicated in some manner with the divine or even with plants in some really weird way (not really communicate in the normal sense but to gain insight in some manner).

If one notes that, while some Indian Buddhism rests on Hindu deities and some Japanese Buddhism rests on Shinto deities, Buddhists are by and large pantheistic (and pantheism itself can run the gamut from mystic atheism to impersonalism to de facto theism), it sort of makes sense that one "communes" with plants by partaking of some of their wares. I'm not generally comfortable with such hippie speak on the matter, but it's a not inapt speculation on your part.

However, bare in mind that, at least to my knowledge, no divine being shared the knowledge of Nirvana with the original Buddha.

That's sort of correct. If one looks to the Lotus Sutra, one finds that Siddhartha Gautama speaks (or was said to have spoken) of predecessors teaching the four noble truths in past kalpas. The "divine beings" who inspired him were previous incarnations of him. I actually see this as something more symbolic, especially in light of his call for followers to teach the four noble truths throughout numerous lifetimes; it looks to me like a statement that these realizations will touch mankind in many ages, that they constitute universal truths that we come to realize through fundamental unity.

He merely discovered it on his own and described it in terms of euphoria.

Sort of, but he also described it in terms of austerity. I think both of these readings are a little misleading, but for the attempt to reconcile them.

But it does make me suspicious when there's not too much application and point to Nirvana other than reaching a state of euphoria, which basically means getting high . . . you merely do it to retreat from the harsh realities of life and to reach the drug-like state of euphoria. After all, one can see this as a sort of psychological medicine with the first Buddha and his struggle against understanding the harshness of life. In reality, the state was merely a retreat from reality and a sleight of hand that is no different than smoking dope to retreat.

This is a very common misconception. One forgets that Bruce Lee was a Buddhist. Coming to the conclusion that the "struggle against the harshness of life" is a kick against an illusion doesn't recuse us from seeking justice, from defending the weak (by violence, if necessary), feeding the hungry, etc. Indeed, this knowledge, this enlightenment, actually increases our obligation to do these things. We are to immerse ourselves in the harshness of life that we may help others through it.

Smoking dope's just the reward for my troubles at the end of the day. :)

"I don't think it truly exists, though it's manifestation is real."

Well of course not silly, Kurt is DEAD. Duh!

Oooo Someone else was "smelling Teen Spirit" too. :)

...the 'Nirvana - drugs' connection was just too obvious to pass up...:)

I am actually shocked to see I am a Gen X-er.

Drugs or no drugs.

Lol

<link>

You might be interested in the Buddhist story of the 24 Buddhas prior to the arrival of the Gotama Buddha. This 24 Buddha Lineage is quite interesting:

You may wonder what is the history behind the 24 Buddhas (with specific and different names) who are venerated at Mahindarama Buddhist Temple.

The ‘24 Buddhas’ in this instance is not the same as the thousand upon thousand of Buddhas’ that some are trying to portray in edifices and pictures.

The chronology of events surrounding the 24 Buddhas is not unknown but have been passed down from The Buddha to His disciples, the Elders (Maha Theras); and subsequently documented and authenticated in the Pali Texts.

You will soon see that the epochs of the 24 Buddhas are closely woven with the ultimate aspiration of the Bodhisatta Gotama to become the Supreme One, the Sammasambuddha, The Conqueror of Conquerors.

No other saga in the annals of the universe comes close to the epochs of The Conqueror.

This lineage of The Buddhas was told by The Buddha Gotama Himself - a tradition that is not guesswork, writer’s flight of fancy, fable, or legend. Read on and be inspired, and be instilled with a deeper wise confidence (saddha) in The Buddha, the Supreme Master.

Buddha Gotama, by virtue of his Supreme Omniscience, Sabbata Nuna Nana2, was able to relate about the beginnings and the journey of His own ascent to become the Sammasambuddha, the Perfect One. Such events had happened in eras so distant that it is impossible for us to say this much or that much of years, just as it is impossible for us to say how much grains of sands are there in the oceans.

The length of time spanning the life history of a Bodhisatta’s unrelenting quest to become the Perfect One represents only a minute section of the incalculable passage of time in Samsara.

Such an endeavour can only be heard of from a Sammasambuddha who can recall with distinct clarity His own struggle to become what He is, a Perfect One.

The first arousing of an altruistic and determined thought in the aspirant Gotama—aspiring to become someone who can save himself and others but not certain as yet of what ‘someone’ he could become—to save himself and beings from danger happened at the most unexpected place—the ocean. [ETC]

Once in the distant past, the aspirant Gotama was born as a poor man who made a living by selling wood and leaves as fuel; and supported his mother too. His father was no more in the world. He was strong and industrious. One day while taking a rest from the enervating summer heat after carrying a heavy load of firewood he reflected that his livelihood depended on his physical strength which were susceptible to decay and ill-health. Thus, he planned to venture to a particular land far away that brimmed with opportunities to earn a better livelihood so that that he could wait upon his mother in comfort.

Both son and mother then embarked on a sea voyage paid by the wages of the son’s work on board the merchant ship. On the seventh day at sea the ship was wrecked in stormy weather, and there were no survivors except the aspirant Gotama and his mother. The brave and determined man managed to keep himself and his mother afloat at sea. A Brahma of the Suddhavasa3 abode beheld the altruistic feat of such a man and caused a compassionate resolve (aspiration) to arise in the aspirant’s mind:

“I will cross the ocean fraught with many dangers and take others across safely, I will become enlightened and enlighten others; I will be released and release others.”

After three days both mother and son finally reached the shore safely. The aspirant continued to attend to his mother. After cessation of his life in the world, the aspirant was reborn in a celestial realm. After the celestial existence, the aspirant was reborn in the human realm as a king named King Sattutapa. He loved elephants and one day a new addition to the stables was acquired.

The king took a ride on the bull-elephant driven by a mahout and went on an inspection tour of the city. Coincidentally, at that time some wild elephants from the forest had created wanton destruction in the park and the king set out to inspect it too. While in the park, the bull-elephant became inflamed by the scent of a she-elephant. It hurled the mahout off its back and chased the she-elephant. The king, still riding the elephant, was unable to control it though he prodded the creature with an elephant hook. He saved himself by grasping onto an overhanging tree branch.

Later, back in the palace, the king summoned the mahout and accused the man of murderous intent. The mahout explained that the bull-elephant, though a well-trained animal, was overcome by lust; after satiating its desire, it would surely return to its stable. True enough, days later the elephant returned to the palace. The mahout said that the power of sense desires impelled the elephant so much so that the animal disregarded the pain from the prodding; and such strong sensual desires was also common among humans.

The king was moved by this reality and it’s accompanying dangers and suffering. He made a mental aspiration to find the way to release from sense desires and its attending dangers, and then lead others to gain release from these things too. Later, the king gave up his kingdom and renounced worldly life to become an ascetic and remained so until the end of his life. He was reborn in the heavens after death.

Subsequently, after his celestial existence when he was reborn in the human realm, the aspirant was a prodigal son of a brahmin endowed with a complexion of golden hue and was thus named Brahma Kumara. At age sixteen, he became accomplished in the arts, sciences, and spiritual texts and later had five hundred male youths as his pupils. Instead of living comfortably from his parents’ immense wealth, he gave it away and became an ascetic.

He had a following of pupils who practised well and were accomplished in supernormal powers. The most senior of his pupils was another aspirant to Enlightenment just like him. He was Bodhisatta Metteya4.

One day the aspirant Gotama and his disciples were out for alms together. They happened to catch sight of an emaciated tigress with her cubs at the foot of a steep clearing. The tigress was moaning for want of food and was very weak. Apparently, the tigress was so hungry that it would at any time made a meal of her cubs.

The aspirant Gotama told his pupil Bodhisatta Metteya to look for the leftovers of what has been eaten by predators. After Bodhisatta Metteya left, Bodhisatta Gotama was reflecting on his body that was a basis of diverse ills and a cause of misery. He then perceived that it was not possible to attain to the highest fruit of training without accomplishing the most difficult task, without making a sacrifice hard to perform and without giving away a gift difficult to give.

Thus, he aroused within himself a mental aspiration: “As a result of this meritorious deed, may I become perfectly enlightened in the future, and lead beings from, the misery of existence to the Deathless5. With these last thoughts, the aspirant leapt into the steep clearing where the tigress and her cubs were and sacrificed his life. The tigress ate the body of the Bodhisatta and thus the lives of the cubs were spared.

After his passing away, the Bodhisatta was reborn in heaven. During a certain world period6, the Bodhisatta Gotama was reborn in a royal family as a step-sister7 of another Bodhisatta who became a Perfect Enlightened One called Buddha Purana Dipankara in that life. Buddha Purana Dipankara also had made a confirmation upon an ascetic Pacchima-Dipankara that the latter would gain Perfect Enlightenment as Buddha Dipankara after having fulfilled the Ten Perfections8 for sixteen asankheyyas9 and a 100,000 kappas beyond the present time.

The princess (Bodhisatta Gotama) was inspired by Buddha Purana Dipankara and offered a gift of mustard oil and made a mental aspiration to become a Sammasambuddha in future. Her aspiration was conveyed by the ascetic Pacchima-Dipankara. Buddha Purana Dipankara, using His Omniscience, said in a future time Bodhisatta Gotama would be confirmed by Dipankara Buddha (the ascetic).

The above episodes are only the chronology of events that aroused the making of mental aspiration by the Bodhisatta Gotama. A time will come to pass that the Bodhisatta, as a man, will have the good fortune to meet a Sammasambuddha face to face and become inspired by the example and personality of The Exalted One -- a role model of what the aspirant would aspire to become! The foregoing paragraphs explain the three epochs of the aspiration of Bodhisatta Gotama beginning from the first time he made his first mental aspiration in the presence of a Sammasambuddha, Brahmadeva Buddha.

"The "divine beings" who inspired him were previous incarnations of him. I actually see this as something more symbolic, especially in light of his call for followers to teach the four noble truths throughout numerous lifetimes; it looks to me like a statement that these realizations will touch mankind in many ages, that they constitute universal truths that we come to realize through fundamental unity."

I don't see how communication with your past selves can be symbolic. It sounds more like a case of time travel communication (which is okay). If you (or rather he) actually was communicating with himself, all the more reason to suspect the nature of Nirvana was a discovery. This seems like discovering fire and not necessarily knowing what it is used for. It can give you warmth and light, but it can be applied in many other ways. So this state of Nirvana could be. The original Buddha saw it as power over the cycle of life. But perhaps it could have been a hasty generalization? The Buddha would have been like a new born babe. Just because a baby can walk, it doesn't mean the baby is adept at knowing such things (not as if I know, mind you). It might simply be the case that Buddhism is a type of spiritual science. This seems like discovering cold fusion, only to discover later that it wasn't cold fusion after all. I see Nirvana as a type of hasty generalization. Perhaps annihilation of the ego, one's sense of self, is not necessarily required. This is like suggesting that a flame can only burn on one type of candle when in reality it can manifest in a myriad of ways. There was probably something to Nirvana but if Buddhism really is a type of spiritual science, and it sounds like it from my perspective, then it might be unfounded in some manner. I do not scoff by any means, it simply suggests that one should be weary of a person who claims a personal discovery of spiritual insight with little to no divine help. It seems like a baby discovering the ability to walk. Just because you walk, it doesn't mean you can't crawl anymore (e.g. in the game of life).

And besides, if your goal is to leave the cycle of life and leave us struggling personages behind, that seems very egotistic in itself. Why would anyone who has annihilated the sense of self, or who seeks it, seek such an egotistic desire? This inconsistency suggests that the ego still plays a role in the hereafter but that it's application is different. For example, you could put others before yourself. In that sense you annihilate your ego. It doesn't mean you annihilate yourself but by working for the greater good you actually give to yourself - the concept of the tragedy of commons shows this.

Of course it doesn't truly exist. It is like the Marxist's "Big Lie".

Eastern Mysticism is a Big Lie manifested by the spirtual enemies of God that control the earth, her religions and her governments. The Way of Death reigns supreme on the earth. Reincarnation and Mysticism are Death's tools of deception. Like the Mafiaoso says, "There is no mafia" with the greatest of conviction.

"It is appointed for man once to die and then be judged."

However, Christ has made a way of escape. Through the foolishness of preaching, men will come to believe in Jesus Christ, the sole avenue of escape from God's judgement. This remnant from all history will be spared tolive in eternal bliss with God in the New Unierse where there is no corruption.

If you want off the wheel of death, fall upon your face and cry out to The Lord, the Son of David, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus Christ. If you can do this, you are the elect and will live forever.

Dd

. . . you appear not to have read the posts to which you respond. For instance, you've a tendency to harp on points I've already addressed. I don't mean that to be snarky or confrontational; I've no particular beef with you. But I have limited time to post, and it's tiresome repeating myself. Case in point:

And besides, if your goal is to leave the cycle of life and leave us struggling personages behind, that seems very egotistic in itself. Why would anyone who has annihilated the sense of self, or who seeks it, seek such an egotistic desire? This inconsistency suggests that the ego still plays a role in the hereafter but that it's application is different. For example, you could put others before yourself. In that sense you annihilate your ego. It doesn't mean you annihilate yourself but by working for the greater good you actually give to yourself - the concept of the tragedy of commons shows this.

This was already addressed in my post. Here's the excerpt:

>>There's a mistaken assumption on the part of the average Westerner that Nirvana constitutes the end goal of Buddhism; in fact, if one reads the Lotus Sutra (the foundational document of all Mahayana Buddhism), one finds that using the persistent illusion from self from lifetime to lifetime is considered a higher goal than "achieving" extinction.<<

And this other one addresses some of the same concerns:

>>Coming to the conclusion that the "struggle against the harshness of life" is a kick against an illusion doesn't recuse us from seeking justice, from defending the weak (by violence, if necessary), feeding the hungry, etc. Indeed, this knowledge, this enlightenment, actually increases our obligation to do these things. We are to immerse ourselves in the harshness of life that we may help others through it.<<

In other words, even if the Buddha is just "discovering cold fusion" (a confusing analogy, but I'm a devotee of poetry, music, and theatre; science is just a persistent annoyance to which I grudgingly nod from time to time), he is testing his discovery--and his theses thereabout--every day, at least in the Mahayana traditions.

I see Nirvana as a type of hasty generalization.

An observation, perhaps. But less a generalization, to my eye, than the assumption of an essentially anthropomorphic God coyly refusing to show himself.

Perhaps annihilation of the ego, one's sense of self, is not necessarily required. This is like suggesting that a flame can only burn on one type of candle when in reality it can manifest in a myriad of ways.

Indeed. Here you agree with Tien Tai and Nichiren Daishonin. Realizing that the self is an illusion is different from disposing of it altogether. After all, these illusions are, according to the Taoist cosmology Buddhism picked up in China, functionally true. Taoism may posit sickness as illusory, but it still treats the appearance of illness through its medicinal philosophies.

I don't see how communication with your past selves can be symbolic.

I don't see why you'd have trouble with that. In the Soka Gakkai, we follow a doctrine that the "past lives" of any Buddhist could be seen in two ways: as the innate potential for goodness (the "Buddha nature") that resides in all people as a function of Ichinen Sanzen, and therefore precedes us and proceeds from us, allowing our realizations and the ACTIONS that they lead us to to affect future generations; and as the tendency of matter and energy to change, rearrange, the tenuous but potent unity between various spheres of energy and matter on a molecular level.

It might simply be the case that Buddhism is a type of spiritual science . . .There was probably something to Nirvana but if Buddhism really is a type of spiritual science, and it sounds like it from my perspective, then it might be unfounded in some manner.

That might be a pretty subjective call. To me, it seems more "founded" (insofar as belief in anything spiritual CAN be "founded") than straight theism, which relies on untestable, unobservable postulates, while Buddhism's doctrines, depending on how you read them, seem more to be observing the thing itself based on how it manifests in this world (though that gulf may have to do with the degree to which the literalists have hijacked the discussion as regards Christianity).

I do not scoff by any means, it simply suggests that one should be weary of a person who claims a personal discovery of spiritual insight with little to no divine help.

And I say one should be wary of a person who claims a personal discovery of a spiritual insight WITH divine help who can't illustrate, or even convincingly indicate, the existence of the divinity entity who so aided him.

Kind of the end of the boom, since I just hit 51 this year, and my musical tastes bridge Hendrix and the Clash...:)

'Their beliefs are Wicked Lies of the Devil, but ours are the True Word of the Lord. Believe it or DIE, infidel!!'

You so funny, nutjob...:)