The entire concept of IQ and intelligence based on race is useless to the point of nonsensical. It isn't that the idea itself is bad, the idea may or may not be bad - I personally wouldn't know, its that the topic is so utterly explosive that no normal discussion can be had over it. Either conclusion, is so abhorrant that neither answer will suffice and all that is left is the canned "we don't know" conclusion.

To explain better.

1) The study is correct, <insert race here> are genetically dumber

2) The study is wrong, <insert reason here>

3) The study is flawed, therefore the conclusions are invalid

Which one are you going to choose - 1, 2, or 3? Its an absolute certainty that the scientific community can ONLY accept 3 as the answer. It doesn't matter who does a study, when, where, or with what data - the community can only accept 3 as an answer and still maintain any credibility. They can try to accept 2, but the data may in fact support the #1 conclusions depending upon how well the study was conducted. Unfortunately nobody will accept that and so they are left shrugging and stating conclusion 3 to save their own reputations (and they will probably go home and take a long shower to wash the residue off as well). Except certain supremist groups and the author, no one will ever accept conclusion 1. People just don't do things like that in a polite society.

Eigenvector:

People just don't do things like that in a polite society.

This is where I really have a problem with PC... A fact is a fact, and that is paramount. I personally don't think it would be an issue, because I believe nurture is far more of a factor in this particular issue than genetics... but if after extensive study there was found a slight adjustment in the bell curve between various races, what would happen? That is the worst (improbable) case... What would happen?

We're past the point where OPEN racism is acceptable, and we won't be returning anytime soon, so that won't happen. The overwhelming likelihood is that a geniune study that adequately accounts for all the variables will show no difference in inherent genetic capacity... Right now, many people (I believe this to be true of most of the people screaming for the issue to be silenced and dropped) geniunely believe there IS an inherent difference in capacity... so studying this can serve to reduce private-held internal racism, but worst case will not in any way worsen OPEN racism or discrimination...

One significant possibility is that there is some noteworthy difference in the way that the different races learn (this is still unlikely), which would indicate a change in class structure will significantly help other races maximize their potential... if that was the case (again the strong likelihood is there is no genetic difference), then cowering behind the gun of PC is serving to harm different races ability to compete... But we can't say... because no-one is willing to LOOK at this.

For the record, while I consider it unlikely there is a significant difference between races, I do believe there is a notable difference between GENDERS in the way that they learn, and this is something that we have also - cowering behind PC - refused to look into... simply insuring that women consistantly are forced to learn in class settings that were designed for the way a male mind processes information... ie. women have been forced to operate with a handicap because we're too chickenshit to admit there might be a few differences.

race and iq is ridiculous.

it fails to explain why the average black iq has risen 16 points in the last 40 years.

i'm a deep believer in evolution and its effects on psychology. the problem is that there isn't a significant enough difference across races to really have a meaningful effect.

Science has accepted that having smarter parents increases your chance of being smarter, thus, it doesn't take much to extrapolate it to the genetic racial level, as races are defined by their lack of diversity and commonality of certain traits.

"it fails to explain why the average black iq has risen 16 points in the last 40 years."

Um, actually, that was access to education. The average black male IQ is currently lowering, as the average black female IQ is rising.

However, it does not say anything about the natural, basic IQ that would exist without education/society.

I can justify that by your answer. You have categorically stated option 3, which is exactly what I would expect EVERYONE to answer - irregardless of the truth.

Mind you I am under no circumstances endorsing any opinion. I truly don't believe there are differences racially, only culturally - but that's option 3 again and only my opinion. It's a dodge of the question to cover my own ass. Because the real question is and always will be - Is race X dumber than race Y? That is the question - couching the answer in terms of culture are clever dodges of the conclusion you wish to really say (Yes/No)

Is race X dumber than race Y? No one answers "No", they say "It depends on the culture" Some people will actually say "Yes" but they are automatically discounted as racists in any serious discussion. The small number who say "No" cannot substantiate their claims without running into the people who say "Yes" and the end result is that neither side can answer the question conclusively because there is ample evidence on both sides of the issue. The only people who come out smelling like a rose are the ones who wisely chose "It depends..." as their answer.

Look I don't expect to be spouting mystical revelation here, I realize there isn't much to my post beyond my observation that people rarely risk alienating half the population over a question that means very little in the scheme of things. I just felt that there is absolutely nothing constructive about this question and therefore any results or answers from it would be meaningless.

"You're racially inferior"

"Thanks a bunch, so what's your proposal?"

"Eugenics - Deutchland ueber alles!"

In The Mismeasure of Man, Stephen Jay Gould showed that IQ measures education and literacy rather than intelligence, and that the idea of measuring intelligence with a single number is absurd because there are many types of intelligence. The fact that IQ scores can rise dramatically in groups such as African Americans in a short time reflects increases in education, not intelligence itself. In fact, the average IQ for all people has increased over time since we started testing, which again reflects the increasing availability of education. The fact that different groups have different average IQs suggests inequities in education and literacy, not actual differences in intelligence.

And in Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond explained that the vast differences between cultures and especially the way that some cultures conquer others, is a result of geographical differences in resources, not a result of genetic superiority. Africa is where it is today because it had historical disadvantages in what crops could grow there and what animals could be domesticated, whereas Europe had advantages in those areas that allowed it to eventually triumph over the rest of the world.

"You're racially inferior"

"Thanks a bunch, so what's your proposal?"

"Eugenics - Deutchland ueber alles!"

:)

"that the idea of measuring intelligence with a single number is absurd because there are many types of intelligence. "

Lame types of intelligence.

Studying education for the too many years that I did (more than a month is way too long, to be honest), you begin to wonder if they defined all of those types of "intelligence" just to try and make everyone feel good about themselves.

moonwatcher:

And in Guns, Germs, and Steel, Jared Diamond explained that the vast differences between cultures and especially the way that some cultures conquer others, is a result of geographical differences in resources, not a result of genetic superiority....

Well said!!! If IQ was really so important, then it would've have been japanese gunboats arriving in Boston instead of Commodore Perry arriving in Tokyo. The Indians would have been running the East Indies Company and the british would have been standing in the back waving fans and asking 'do you need me suh?'. And the jews would have been pondering the 'final solution' on the Germans.

IQ only measures a small peculiar set of human traits. And as you can see from world history- it's not a particularly important set of traits.

That is a fact, not a pander. By failing to account for cultural variables the data that is presented is useless. However, if data were collected that adequately isolated out variables then we'd learn something.

That doesn't mean anyone will start talking eugenics (we don't have anywhere NEAR the courage as a culture to discuss THAT), it means we'd LEARN something.

If - unlikely but even still - there is a difference in learning between races (or more likely between genders) then the classes could be made to help MAXIMIZE the potential of the student... better inabling them to confront the world and compete successfully. That is a good potential.

If - extremely likely - it is comprehensively shown that this is BUNK, then the large percentage of the population that is silently THINKING of one race as inferior to another will have evidence that directly disproves their private prejudism... That too is a good thing.

What we effectively have by cowering behind PC is a state where open discussion of something that many people silently believes is taboo... but people still believe it, and whenever someone brings it up a bunch of people start panicking and shushing the person... "SHHHH!!! We can't talk about that!!! Which for both the people who privately question and the children that have no opinion serves to validate and reinforce that opinion. Thank you PC, for being the most effective means possible of fostering prejudism.

The mere idea that "You can't think about that!!" is stupid.

"If - unlikely but even still - there is a difference in learning between races (or more likely between genders) then the classes could be made to help MAXIMIZE the potential of the student... "

I believe primarily where we differ here is in that I don't believe that to be a realistic response. I believe that when confronted with evidence, good evidence, the reaction will be outright denial or disbelief and discreditation.

Think of it this way, if someone came up to you and said

"You're a moron, and here's documented proof to demonstrate it!"

Would you believe them even if you read the report demonstrating how stupid you were? I sure as hell wouldn't, my ego's a little too enlarged for such indelicate phrasing of the truth - how much more if they said it about my entire race. I think the reason why I wouldn't is because despite what the report says (hypothetical of course) I'm doing perfectly fine in society - I'm clicking right a long one two one two. I think the same would hold true at a racial level

would be if I took an IQ test and was given a score significantly below what I expected...

This, BTW, has happened to me.

It served to significantly change my self-awareness, lower my level of pride, and made me have a little more appriciation for the opinions of others... who were not quite so dumb compared to me as I had thought. (perhaps this is not a perfect comparison, since I'm still a MENSA member... and I didn't squeak by to get in, but...)

It wouldn't be saying (in the rediculously improbable hypothetical case) "you're a moron", it would be saying that ON AVERAGE, a member of one group has a slight advantage or disadvantage over members of other groups... The distinction is clear - in your case you presuppose the information would serve as a means for making members of the group give up on their possibility. In my case, I believe that information would tend to encourage them to work harder "you have a disadvantage" always served to encourage me to work harder, not give up...

Perhaps the best analog would be that of divulging health information to patients... In some cases the knowledge would cause them to try to improve their chances, in other cases it would force them to accept their possibilities... but in all cases it is KNOWLEDGE... That shouldn't be suppressed just because it MIGHT make somebody feel bad.

Of course, the entire argument is purely abstract, since we both agree the likelihood of any serious study coming to such a conclusion is near 0... which means the study will almost certainly serve to end the debate and confront prejudism with certain evidence.

Better nutrition, fewer toxins (especially lead paint), and better disease treatments (for example, antibiotics) also play a significant part in the rise of IQ scores over the last century. Would you be as upset if you knew more about this issue? The differences being discussed are TINY. If you line everyone up according to their IQ test scores, white males are very slightly more likely to be at the very top -and- at the very bottom of the distribution. Black males and all females score almost exactly the same. What these tests really show is that there is more diversity of IQ scores for white males than for anyone else, not that the averages are different. Is it really that horrible to think that a large group of white males might have two fewer normal members, one extra mentally retarded member, and one extra high genius?