it makes me think Christers have a fairly superficial sense of what brings joy to human experience.

Speaking solely for myself, if there is an afterlife, I hope it's just like the world we live in. Seriously. Destruction, evil, depravity...hope, innocence, true love...the whole nine yards.

Can you imagine living every day without risk?

Ok here you use the term 'Christers' and heaven and hell.

To you Christers = assholes.

So is it fair to say that only assholes believe in heaven and hell?

This is why from a faith based perspective I reject your term 'Christers' (hey it is very useful from a political perspective).

Most Christians that I know of (note NOT 'Christers') believe in the concept of heaven and hell.

You know, I'd really rather talk about heaven and hell. Assholes become tiresome discussion topics.

Wouldn't you rather have some balance between the two poles of morality, rather than one over the other? Folks say we're imperfect, spoiled by sin, hence our inability to grasp the perfection of heaven and the joy we'll find there. I don't think that's it. I think we need conflict of some kind.

Ok we can move on but just note that I still don't agree with you on the assholes point.

As I said Heaven is a romantic concept but it is like the romantic concept of marrying a super model.

Yes at first one thinks about all the great things they can get (e.g. sex with a 10 anytime I want,,, see her naked,,, etc....), but after a while one starts to think about the everyday type of stuff (e.g. when she farts it still smell bad!, without make up she really isn't that much hotter than my last girlfriend etc...), and one quickly see that the notion of some perfect place is a joke and would be boring.

I agree we need conflict.

Christers are assholes. I'm sticking to my guns on that one. If they weren't assholes, I would have no need to distinguish them from Christians.

Tip asked if the Pope was a 'Christers'.

If not, why not?

Anyhow based on the replies I read from Christians, Christians do NOT support the concept of 'Christers' from a faith based perspective. In other words all Christians believe the same crap as Ann and her 'kind'. The only difference is Ann was willing to speak out in public.

Is Challenged and Tasked necessarily synonymous to being to a degree at Risk? Much of the afterlife will be like this existence. However, in the afterlife, righteousness only will exist in the new heavens and upon the new earth. No unrighteousness at all. That will all be with those put away from as far as the east is from the west. Corruption will be ended. Somehow, God, in His Almighty Power is going to give us volition without corruption along with eternal and necessarily perfect substanciality.

So, if I chose to spend ten thousand years in one of my many toy rooms in my mansion Christ had prepared for me doing everything I want in a perfect and righteous way, as long as I am rendering God the glory and praising His name and following His will, which I could not do otherwise, anyway because it is against my righteous nature, that is heaven for me as I am experiencing it.

I am wondering if maybe the glorified human being will be able to experience time like He (God) does. Imagine that. Each instant of eternity an eternity. Whew!

Dd

Be careful what you ask for.

While conflict can make life interesting, it could also take on unanticipated eternal attributes. Let's say you're in heaven, and upon trying to enjoy a restful nap in a hammock woven from silky angel hair, in the mansion next door, some obnoxious bickering couple's fight doesn't just last for 20-30 minutes. It goes on for three or four-thousand millennia. How about a kick in the nuts? The pain could be one-billion-fold worse and last two-hundred billion times as long.

Christians are constantly accused of anthropomorphizing God. I then turn that accusation around to those who would place our template of being on an eternal reward. : )

Cleaver, I promise you that their bickering would not last a thousand years. I would make sure of it. But you do allude to an interesting point: without the threat of the finality of death, conflict might spill over into abject chaos.

Going back to the Christers/assholes question, I would have to assume the Pope is definitely a Christer. For crying out loud, people kiss his ring! That's going beyond even Oral Roberts in Christer-hood.

'We'll all be changed, perfected, no more life in the flesh, only life in the spirit, Heaven is beyond your imagination, adoring God is eternal joy,' etc. etc.

Any afterlife that involves punishing people eternally for "sins" committed in their limited, mortal existence is an evil afterlife run by an evil God. But I'm not too worried, I'm quite sure that it's just pretend...

Anse:

it makes me think Christers have a fairly superficial sense of what brings joy to human experience.

Speaking solely for myself, if there is an afterlife, I hope it's just like the world we live in. Seriously. Destruction, evil, depravity...hope, innocence, true love...the whole nine yards.

Can you imagine living every day without risk?

We know that Heaven will be perfect. That means different things to different people. Some people can't conceive of Heaven without their pets and so I believe that their pets will be there with them. For me it will be the ability to study, learn and understand things. For others it will be their idea of perfection all tempered by the Glory of the Most Perfect Being, GOD. The Bible says that we will have a perfect body so there will be no disease or sickness to battle, we will never be too tired to respond to a situation. There will be no marriage in Heaven, no lust, nothing but Perfect and True Love. A Perfect mind and a Perfect body. The ability to do what we know is the right thing without any compromise. Think of the most beautiful place you have every seen or thought of and Heaven will be multiple times more beautiful. Think of the most perfect situation you could be in and Heaven will be multiple times more satisfying then that. The Bible mentions 3 heavens. The first heaven is the atmosphere which encloses the earth. The second heaven is our observable universe. The third Heaven is not observable by us, it is the home of GOD and those with whom HE chooses to share it. My thought on Heaven is that if I have to spend eternity somewhere that's where I want to be, but even without a Heaven I would still be a Christian. Christianity espouses True Love of GOD and my fellow man, to help whenever I can, even if it means making a personal scrafice for the good of another, The Bible teachs that GOD is a Spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth. While what you do is important, what you believe in your heart is more important. Your actions and your words come from what you believe in your heart.

As for Hell:

Lu 16:19
¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Lu 16:20
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Lu 16:21
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Lu 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Lu 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Lu 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Lu 16:25
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Lu 16:26
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Lu 16:27
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Lu 16:28
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Lu 16:29
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Lu 16:30
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Lu 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

..when you say this:

We know that Heaven will be perfect.

We don't "know" any such thing, that is purely a matter of belief. We cannot "know" in fact whether Heaven or a God or Gods even exist, much less what their natures are.

FWIW

There's a very real difference between knowledge and belief, and without respect to knowledge we don't even know a heaven will exist.

No one knows whether or not there IS an afterlife, and certainly we do not know what it consists of. So statements of fact about "Heaven" are really statements of belief, only.

Clear?

Horus:

..when you say this:

We know that Heaven will be perfect.

We don't "know" any such thing, that is purely a matter of belief. We cannot "know" in fact whether Heaven or a God or Gods even exist, much less what their natures are.

FWIW

Yes, we do know. We know because we have witnessed so much of GOD's work here on earth. If the other things which HE said HE would do here on earth do happen, then I have no doubt about the rest of what HE has said. I guess that is the difference between GOD's Chosen people and others, our faith is upheld by what we witness and recognize as GOD's handy work here on earth. We see and believe while others see and do not believe.