I am a bit offended by the agnostic bashing in the article. Being an agnostic is about faith, not balls. There is no definitive proof of the existence or the absence of god. Therefore, a person who believes in god has "faith" that there is a god and, following that logic, a person who is an atheist has "faith" that there is no god. An agnostic is somewhat of a realist in saying, "I don't know if there is a god or not", i.e. I have no "faith" either way. Takes a lot of balls not to jump on anyone's bandwagon and say "I don't know".

I don't know...I was indoctrinated as a child to believe that I'd go to hell if I didn't believe in god. It was especially powerful because my mom is so religious.

It took some balls for me to question that belief and subsequently become an athiest.

Can you prove the absence of something?

I'm not out to offend agnostics, but I do think there is some truth to their lack of faith-based balls. I'm sure that many agnostics have put a lot of thought into their position, and have a view of the universe that works perfectly fine for them. However, those are not the agnostics I know.

Most people I know who have called themselves agnostic have done so as a way of punting on religious conversation - they'd rather not think about religion at all, which makes them seem like atheists, but they don't want to paint themselves into a corner, so they say they're agnostic. However, that is all just my own anecdotal experience, of course.

I think agnostics are in a somewhat untenable position, philosophically. Given that the nature of god\religion is basically all-encompassing, it would seem to be somewhat lazy to call a tie between the existence of All-powerful forces and the nonexistence of it. If I thought there was a chance that I might end up in eternal hell and damnation after I died, I would make sure I was in the right - or at least would investigate my own thoughts on the subject more rigorously.

It seems to me that the true agnostic needs to be someone who is constantly thinking about the possibility that god exists - wrestling with the fact that they might have to deal with eternal consequences. However, most agnostics I see are more or less waiting around for the evidence to come to them.

Where you are wrong, at least from my agnostic perspective, is that you assume an agnostic should be agnostic on all aspects of faith. I'm certainly not. I believe revelation, religion or even a special relationship between man and creator to be a load of buncombe. A "god" so omnipotent that he created the entire universe, and yet so petty he eternally punishes insignificant carbon based life forms for apostasy is not a possibility that troubles my conscience.

But this in no way answers the ultimate question of whether there was an intelligence behind the formation of the cosmos. To that possibility I remain quite open.

I suppose this argument turns on the question of balls as a theology, or solid, real-world balls.

I am, by many accounts, going to Hell. I'm a minion of the Great Satan, according to the Jihadists, I'm a sinner by rights of not accepting Jesus as my personal savior, I've not only had sex out of wedlock but in possitions other than God had intended Man - although in my middle age, I often regret this in the morning. I enjoy not only Rock music, but clearly Satanic bands like Rush, BOC, KISS, Motorhead, AC/DC - I have my Joan Biez moments, too, but I must be true to the light which has saved me - namely Joan Jett & The Blackhearts 'I Love Rock n' Roll' which steered me from the horrible, flavorless path of Top 40. Pa-raise Rock and/or Roll!

But I usually greet the hellbound prognostications with apathy. Hell is for monotheists, or at least the fire and brimstone lakes of blood disco hell that I've been told await me. I've worked retail during the Holidays, your Hell has no sting for me. This isnt courage - there is no balls to saying 'bite my shinny metal ass' to the Moral Majority. Fun, yes, a moral imperitive, yes. Ballsy, no.

As for solid, real-world balls to the walls - its the religious types hands down. Whether they're in suicidal charges yelling Deus Vult or blowing themselves to bits yelling Allahu Ackbar, or pledging their blood for Odin, theres a fearless fanaticism which you just cant get without deity. Without that absolute faith that you're gonna nail 40 virgins in Paradise, forever. Not my idea of paradise, I'd much rather forty women of questionable morality, 40 women of buxom qualities who serve me on-tap beer while dressed in a variety of revealing costumes. Oh Catholic School Girl wench, assist Pussycat Girl with my beer! Chop chop! Oh, Dominatrix wench, your cleavage is blocking Family Guy! Come closer so that they may entirely bot it out, for it is that sucky roadtrip episode!

Even ballsyer than killing infidels in the name of which ever brand of god/godess/other you've chosen, is when you have no power. No mighty sharp sword, no bombs, no AKs.

Just faith.

The Prophet Mohammed, going to Mecca unarmed on pilgrimage, even though the people in power had vowed to kill him. Martin Luther King marching in the deep South, at a time when people of his skin color frequently got hanged by mobs for being in the same town with white women.

You cannot triumph in situations like that without the irrational belief that your course is a divine one, that you've picked the right path, even though every power you know is arrayed against you. God is on your side, you have faith, and its not a rational matter. Bravery rarely is - it is the irrationality of religion which enables the evil to conduct suicide bombings that kill innocents, but it is also the irrational power of religion that enables the innocent to rise above their opressors.

seed_drill:

I believe revelation, religion or even a special relationship between man and creator to be a load of buncombe.

But this in no way answers the ultimate question of whether there was an intelligence behind the formation of the cosmos. To that possibility I remain quite open.

You're first sentance there basically marks you as an atheist in the eyes of anyone who is religious. I choose to see theist\atheist\agnostic positioning on the grounds that religious people would define it, because the underlying beliefs of atheists and agnostics are almost always formed in opposition to religious beliefs.

You could say you're agnostic towards this or that - agnostic as to whether the universe is just a computer simulation, or if this is all a dream,or if aliens created us, but thats much less relevant to the debate over faith than it is to address the existence of the monotheistic God that the majority of the world's population believes in.

So it sounds like you are taking a ballsy position - no religion, no Judeo-Christian Jehova or Yahweh. Not maybe, but no. = atheism.

This is the original poster again. I personally look at most of the world's religions as a giant brainwashing factory. From day 1 children have whatever religion drilled into their heads. They don't make their own choices and it takes balls to question and fight against their programming. Religion also attracts those at the lowest points in their lives... just like the dreaded cult (I don't see much difference). It takes a lot to tell the truth.... "I don't know and neither should you". As for picking a religion / deity just to avoid hell; you could be picking the wrong one. Your god could be the evil one and the evil one (in your eyes) could be the right one. You might just get his name wrong and piss him off. I wish, that if there is a god, that it will at least tolerate the honest fact that I did not know what was beyond my abilities to experience. Or, I might just cease to exist, and in that case, at least I didn't waste time paying homage to nothing. I think a lot about religion. I often wish I could believe something, buy I cannot. I have found nothing to satisfy my questions, but unlike the people who have faith, I cannot bring myself to lie to myself or to others to fit in, or to not go to their version of hell. It just doesn't work that way. My life would be easier if I believed... no arguments with the parents / wife about what to bring up the child (I want them to be open to all religions and non-religion and make their own choice when they are old enough -- no brainwashing). No dirty looks when I say I am an agnostic... and no more endless explanations of what it is... no more "saved" people trying to sway me.... arrrrghhh.....

I personally consider myself an agnostic. It's not that I am unsure that a 'god' exists, it's that I'm not sure YOUR 'god' is the right or only god. So many people are so sure they have the only right and true answer to the higher power that it makes me believe none of them have the only right and true answer and that, in fact, their is no one right and true answer. In fact, I think there is only a little bit of truth and lot of bulls--- in every religion.

Agnostics have no balls, period. An atheist, which I am, has no doubt about the nonexistance of gods and all that stuff. To say we have "faith" god doesn't exist is absolutely ridiculous. Faith means hope and we don't hope there's no god, we know there's is no god.

Agnostics are trying to have it both ways like a good politician does and for that they end up looking like the fools they are.

Interesting, Philistine, that those who believe in a god ALSO say that "faith" is not hope... they also say that they know there is a god. There is not difference in their faith that there is a god and your faith that there isn't. Both of you think you know for sure and you both make the same argument for what you believe without any proof backing you up. I, personally, am not trying to "have it both ways" like a politician... because basically, I piss off both of you .. not a good political strategy. I simply cannot bring myself to believe in something in the abscence of definitive proof. It is that simple. It is not a choice. I can't choose to have faith in either argument, because choosing is not knowing, it is just picking something to fit in or not anger others or to get support or whatever reason. Even if I picked a position, I would be lying, because I don't know the answer. Besides, what sense does it make for a person to have faith that there is no god... if you are going to have faith anyway, why not choose the more hopeful route..... my guess is that you enjoy stirring the pot and seeing people's reactions.

PhilistineTheArtLover:

Agnostics have no balls, period. An atheist, which I am, has no doubt about the nonexistance of gods and all that stuff. To say we have "faith" god doesn't exist is absolutely ridiculous. Faith means hope and we don't hope there's no god, we know there's is no god.

Agnostics are trying to have it both ways like a good politician does and for that they end up looking like the fools they are.

Faith has a number of possible definitions. I don't see any here as simple as 'hope,' but I do see "belief that is not based on proof". I don't share your knowledge, Philistine, though I would be interested to hear about it.

I am technically agnostic, because I will not claim that knowledge -- I have not proven a negative, I do not know that there is no god, of any sort, at all. I can be atheistic about a particular god or gods based on the properties, philosophy, evidence, etc. ascribed to them. In fact I am, when it comes to Christianity, which I have studied. I won't make such statements about other religions that I'm more or less ignorant of.

When you step beyond 'I don't know,' or 'I don't believe,' to 'I know there is no god,' I think you've moved past reason and into faith. When you say, 'there is no god,' I can answer, 'prove it,' just as one may challenge 'there is a god.' For my part, I say I don't know. How exactly is this "trying to have it both ways?" To call atheists ballsy is simply an emotional appeal, and rightly dismissed.

I don't know there isn't a god any more than I know there isn't a Santa Claus or an invisible pink elephant flying over everyone's heads. What I do know is that I don't believe in any gods or goddesses. That's what makes me an athiest.

You can dismiss calling athiests ballsy if you wish, but it takes courage to question beliefs that are drilled into you from birth. Especially when such thoughts supposedly could lead to being cast into hell.

Philistine is right, and the rest of you guys are making this more complicated than it need be.

I've written here a month or two ago about how atheism is not faith (I was responding to a claim that atheism is just another religion). The reasoning is very simple.

To be religious, you need to take mental and phyical action. You need to think about the existence of god. Get up and pray. Think about your actions in the framework of your chosen religion.

To be an atheist, you don't need to do anything. In fact, the best atheists are those who don't think about god at all. Zippo. They have no (a) thoughts on god or religion (theism). I don't believe in god. Now, I don't have proof that there is no god (even though thats a dubious request by believers), but I don't need to prove gods not existence to choose not to believe in God. What am I having faith in? That the world operates precisely how I see it operating? If thats faith, then everything we do is "faith."

As for agnostics, I think its great that people like yourselves are exploring other possibilities and alternatives to god. My point was just that the religious debate is not about God, No God, or alternatives to God. The debate in America (that matters) is about a stark difference between the existence and omnipotence of God, and the lack thearoff. Most religious people aren't interested in "alternatives" - thats all atheism to them.

Well, at least Phil didnt try saying Science is on his side.

Because the essential problem with Athiesm is that not one Athiest can show, scientifically, the absence of the divine. First, define your terms. Are we talking Christian God guy, long beard, looks a bit like an ominous Santa? Or any of the other nine billion names of God? Or the concept of divinity? The Unversalist, pagan, Shinto idea that things have spirit, that people continue on after we in the mortal coil stop interacting with them?

I mean, for good science you have to define what it is that isnt.

Have you looked Everywhere? I mean, maybe you cant find God because a woman put Him away somewhere. When I cant find my coat, I look in the closet, because for some reason, thats where my wife keeps putting it. Have you looked in every dimension? Every single corner of the Universe? All possible alternate realities? At every single scale?

What have you used to look for God? Your eyes are a pretty good start, but they're actually quite limited. No infrared or ultraviolet, and forget about the funky EM radiation like Cosmic Rays - just in and out without a single neuron firing. What tools have you used, oh one with the thumb and impressive frontal lobe? Little bitty bugs causing disease was no better than a belief until someone invented the microscope - and doctors were still on about miasma and humors for quite a while.

You say you know God doesnt exist. I say you havent looked hard enough to say KNOW. I think the best you can say is BELIEVE.

And you wont say that, because that would make you a religion.

Sounds like he's a Deist, to me.