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Bush is right
by dreamworld
I believe President Bush is correct in killing the increases in government health care. It was never intended to replace private medical care among the middle class insured. Like Bush, I see this as the prelude to democrats forcing government health care on America. We know that such programs in other countries lead to substandard treatment and we shouldn't stand for it. Democrats equal big government. They want ot micro manage our lives and tell us what to think and how to vote. Their lackeys in the media are making national health care sound wonderful when, in fact, it would be a disaster--and an expensive disaster paid for by all working people, not just the rich as they would have you believe.
Bush is a knee jerk
by smelly

He takes the right wing position on everything.

He is also a hypocrite, his so called conservatism has not attached to his fiscal policies at all.Its better to let rich folks off the hook for reasonable taxes than it is to make sure every child has reasonable access to medical care-- GIVE US ALL A BREAK.Nothing could be more illogical.

Re: Bush is right
by shines2k

Just to be sure, you do realize that current spending for health care in the US dwarfs that of other OECD countries with supposedly expensive government health care? (such as Switzerland, Norway, Germany, etc). Our spending is more than TWICE the average. See <link>

Meanwhile, we have lower life expectancies, higher infant mortality rates, and MILLIONS of Americans live without healthcare.

Put aside your ideology and think, for a moment, about what you are saying: spending more to get less is better ONLY because the expense is covered by a corporate bureaucracy instead of a government bureaucracy.

Re: Bush is right
by Kalervo

There are many reasons for our healthcare spending and for the discrepancies in our health versus other countries. The most important effect on out of control health care spendings is due to an inappropriate fixation ib interventional care rather than effective prevention and chronic management (said by a practicing medical doctor). However, this has very little to do with the health discrepancies. That particular nut probably has to do with our increasingly unhealthy lifestyle.

There is an enormous amount of distortion from both sides of the health care debate. While there are serious problems in American healthcare and lifestyle, in general people are living longer. They are not, however, living longer at the rate of other countries.

Second, statistics are often distorted and when comparisons are made between countries it is the equivalent of comparing apples to oranges. One example , the higher infant mortality rate of this country has to do with a substantially different way of tallying the statistics. To be brief, we tend to overestimate using our definition and much of the world tends to underestimate by using another definition.

This however, doesn't address the primary question- namely- how to pay for the operation. Bush has a valid point that increasing governmental subsidy may prove ineffective. Even should we have universal coverage, this is not likely to reduce costs without serious reorganization of how the system is delivered. Contrary to popular belief, administrative overhead doesn't swallow nearly the amount of money that it is credited for swallowing. To move immediately to a Universal, Government Run System would bankrupt this country in a few years. While government pays for much of healthcare at this moment, they do not pay for all of it (nor are they equiped to accept that burden). It is a very complicated question and I hope that Mr. Noah is correct in saying that we might just have a serious discussion of it.

Re: Bush is right
by Unbeliever

You have the right nickname, "dreamworld."

Yes, you and W are going to save us from having Universal Health Care forced on us like the happier and healthier citizens of those terrible European countries.

You talk of degrading American health care, while justifying denial of health care to those who can't afford it. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that even a degraded health care would be better than no health care. But you've got yourself covered, one way or another, so why should you give a rat's ass, eh? "I'm OK, so screw you" seems to be a favorite slogan among the meanies on the right.

We know where your heart is...

and isn't!

Re: Bush is right
by Unbeliever

"Bankrupt this country in a few years"? Haven't you heard? We're already bankrupted, thanks to W's nearly 7 years of reckless and unnecessary spending. We're being bankrolled by China and Saudi Arabia, among others. We're living "on the cuff." And W slashing taxes for the rich while launching an endless war in Iraq...was that fiscally responsible?

Our government's budget deficit is larger than it's ever been. Our national debt is also. Why do we worry about "bankrupting our nation" when it comes to health care, and not when it comes to needless wars and profiteering by no-bid crony contractors in Iraq?

Whenever it comes to doing something for the working people of this country, the conservatives talk about fiscal responsibility and affordability. Otherwise, we seldom hear a peep about W's spending money like water. And he justifies it all, all the pork-barrel spending by the Republican-controlled Congress of his first six years, by the pious statement that "I'll spend whatever's necessary to keep our country secure." Wave the flag and kiss the Bible and mention 9/11. End of discussion.

But no one believes W anymore; no one, that is, but the True Believers.

Re: Bush is right
by Kalervo

You sir, are a moron. Why does it always come down to Iraq and the cost of the war... blah blah... Bush is a fool... blah blah... We could do so much more... blah blah? I didn't say anything about Bush, Iraq or anything remotely close. But, let's look at your claim.

The current cost of the war in Iraq as of a few minutes ago was $457,092,970,000 (you can see the momentary costs by going here). Current health care costs (total) for this year are estimated to be between 2 and 3 trillion (that would be 2,000,000,000,000 on the low end).

The total cost of the Iraq war is for the four years of war clusterfuck. The 2 to 3 trillion is for this year's health clusterfuck. That means that American Health Care is between four and six times as expensive as the total Iraq War on a yearly basis. Accepting the full responsibility, or even a majority of that cost would ruin our ability to provide any of the necessary services beyond health care. At the current time, it is estimated that the government pays for about 44% of healthcare costs (as of 2001) and we are already facing a crisis (see here for a good overview that is actually readable).

Your inappropriate Iraq war reference demonstrates you clearly do not understand the problem. My initial response has nothing to do with "true believing" or any such kind of nonsense. It has to do with actually appreciating "what is happening." As I said: You are a moron.

Re: Bush is right
by qistat
Kalervo- He was referring to the top post by 'Dreamer'
Re: Bush is right
by Kalervo
Oh. Uhm... sorry. You are not a moron.
Re: Bush is right
by JWD927

IT may now, but if the Dems have their way it won't. The childrens health care program is nothing more than the typical "foot in the door" ploy whilst hiding behind children ah the poor children to enact FEDERALLY controlled plans that will control EVERYONE'S lives. And as everyone is brought under this so-called federal health care...the costs will skyrocket and the ALLOWABLE operations will diminish. There is NOT one government subsidized health care program on planet earth that is a screaming success. There is NOT one socialist government on planet earth that is a screaming succces. There is NOT one despotic government that is a screaming success and the EU certainly is no benchmark for anything. So to hell with socialism.

Oh by the way. In case no one understands this, the role of the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is NOT to be mommy and daddy for every lame and lazy and irresponsible individual in this nation...and this nonesense about hiding behind the children to enact programs that enable that segment of our population to continue to not make the necessary changes in their lives only cripple us all and will ultimately bankrupt this nation just like most nations in the EU.

While the baseline premise behind socialism may be born of "good honest intention" and what these people advocate may feeeeeeeeeeeel good, keep in mind that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. But that doesn't mean that what one does or advocates as a result of said intentions is a right and honorable path.

Dem leaders know this is how to get under everyones skin....and they also know that whenever programs of this nature are expanded so to is their power base...as more and more begin to rely on mommy and daddy government like co-dependent errant little teenagers.

Case in point as to how dumbed down and how idiotic is the left in this nation? The nonesense on the floor of the congress lead by the grandiose and arrogant Harry Reid about trying to "get Rush Limbaugh" and literally taking what he said out of context to promote a childish smear campaign reminiscent of a teeny bopper in junior high school.

Instead of demanding censure of Limbaugh WE THE PEOPLE should demand our money's worth and demand that all who signed up for such nonesense be FIRED.

They are:

  1. Harry Reid, majority leader
  2. Richard Durbin, assistant majority leader
  3. Charles Schumer, vice chairman, Democratic Conference
  4. Patty Murray, secretary, Democratic Conference
  5. Daniel Akaka
  6. Max Baucus
  7. Joseph Biden
  8. Barbara Boxer
  9. Sherrod Brown
  10. Robert Byrd
  11. Benjamin Cardin
  12. Tom Carper
  13. Bob Casey
  14. Hillary Rodham Clinton
  15. Kent Conrad
  16. Christopher Dodd
  17. Byron Dorgan
  18. Dianne Feinstein
  19. Tom Harkin
  20. Daniel Inouye
  21. Edward M. Kennedy
  22. John Kerry
  23. Amy Klobuchar
  24. Mary Landrieu
  25. Frank Lautenberg
  26. Patrick Leahy
  27. Carl Levin
  28. Blanche Lincoln
  29. Bob Menendez
  30. Barbara Mikulski
  31. Bill Nelson
  32. Barack Obama
  33. Jack Reed
  34. Jay Rockefeller
  35. Ken Salazar
  36. Bernie Sanders
  37. Debbie Stabenow
  38. Jon Tester
  39. Jim Webb
  40. Sheldon Whitehouse
  41. Ron Wyden
Re: Bush is NEVER right
by Clyde Turbo
The problem is Bush and the MORONS on this board don't seem to know the difference between Health Care and Health INSURANCE! Listen up MORONS were talking about HEALTH INSURANCE for children so STFU!!
Re: Bush is right
by frantaylor

"Party of big government" - look who's in charge of the biggest government expansion in history - yes, it's GW Bush.

"They want to micro manage our lives" - what do you think "No Child Left Behind" is all about? It's about micro-managing the education of our children. It's the most liberal, socialist thing to come down the pike in this country in a long long time.

"lead to substandard treatment" - ask the guy who had to choose which of his fingers he wanted reattached because his health insurance would only cover one.


"expensive disaster" - your health insurance premiums will go down, because you won't be subsidising the bills of poor people who go to the emergency room and don't pay.

You gotta find some better talking points.

Republicans are lemmings
by old new lefty

Providing basic health care to how income children who have no other source of health care except for the emergency room and charity should be a no brainer.

Any Republican congressman who doesn't mind losing three to five percent of his vote total in the next election should have no problem supporting the president.

It should be obvious that Bush doesn't care if the Rs go down in flames in 2008. He's only interested in himself and his own fantasies.

Re: Bush is right
by Conner2L

JWD927 you are so right....I mean, who do those senators think they are? Trying to help their lower middle class constituents. Dont they realize that they should just listen to the president, after all...everything is goin great! Government is for rich people, not for the middle class, at least not beyond tricking them into thinking they have a say.

You sir.......... are nuts

Re: Bush is right
by Unbeliever

Kalervo:

I do wish people could disagree on the Fray without calling each other morons. I may have mentioned a point from your post, maybe not, but I was not responding to your post. Whether or not you are properly addressing your remarks to me, I don't know, and I don't have time to sort it out, but really, name-calling is the end of discussion, not a continuation of it. Chill out. We're all fallible here.

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