I have absolutely zip to do with the future of Cagle. I just thought it would make a dramatic title. Very catchy.I could have put the word future in caps, but maybe that would be going too far.

Here is the problem. I've got dinner waiting for me and I'm letting it get cold because I have to rush off a stupid post no one will even read. There are a lot of interesting obsessive compulsive addictions out there, but internet blogging is not one to write home about. Sex addiction and gambling addiction would be more fun, even if more damaging too.

I'm thinking of taking up sex addiction (he says) (even as Mrs. Fredf snickers and guffaws).

I no longer post in the daytime, and it takes something out of it when people don't respond in realtime, or worse, your post rolls off, or worse yet, no one even reads it.

I've been doing a Dr. Bill. No, not getting massages from Elizabeth. She can only guess what she is missing on that score. No, no. I have been looking at the Fray stats.

In particular, the views. unebug seems to be the most unpopular poster around. Dr. Fran, for no reason I can discern, seems to be one of the most popular posters around. Why is that ? I'm definitely on the low end of the totem pole. Not only is my main passion in life irrelevant now, Bush hating, but you've all heard my best stories and I'm getting stale. Passe. Blah blah blah.

In fact, the best I've read lately was that pathetic abortive attempt to lure Wolfen off of Bushisms. How pathetic when you must import nutjobs like a fine wine or a fermented cheese.

To add insult to insult, many regulars have gone on to better things. Guys like bdaddy and Everlong keep the Fray juiced up with their pithy one-liners, which sting like a bee and dance like a whacked out butterfly. As noted elsewhere, they just drop in from time to time to say hi.

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Oh yes, the Vietnam mention. I read where the Vietnam Memorial was defaced by some kind of oily substance, and the website hacked by a Turkish hacker. That comes at the same time as the Ahmadinejad fiasco.

You all know I didn't go over, but it doesn't sit well with me all the same. prag wanted to know why no one bothered to mention this latest insult with Ahmadinejad. Well, someone just did.

As many have noted, there are people out there who hate us and are actively trying to dream up ways to get us.

You didn't want to live in a boring era, did you ?

It's a shame when someone of your quality drops out, but it's understandable. The Fray is a family, and families have their own needs, dynamics, and politics. bdaddy, everlong, prag1, and possibly you and rob1 all have been noticeably absent lately, and the political content and to-and-fro debate of of the site has mostly turned into something far more domestic (yuck!) and touchie-feelie, and also far less interesting and enlightening than before.

My complaint was not just about What's His Name, who got far more civil treatment at Columbia than he deserved. He, Putin, Dubya, and Kim Jong Il are the four greatest criminals in the world, and all deserve to be detained and tried at the Hague for War Crimes and for Crimes against Humanity.

My complaint, along with that of everlong, was of a severe deterioration in the political and intellectual quality of discourse at Cagel. I stand by that complaint. Cagel is losing its brains and its intellectual curiosity.

As for the Vietnam Veteran's Memorial Wall, the oily substance found on it was the same Black Oil made infamous by "The X-Files". Turns you into an alien monster, just like fundamentalist Christians and Muslims and any other ideologically fanatical bastards out there in the world, President Bush, his administration, and most of Congress included.

I visited the VVMW on a Spring trip to DC shortly after it was opened to the public. It was a brilliant, bright, sunny Spring day, the cherry trees were blossoming, and The Wall was loaded with people, both curious civilians and vets in uniform. Other than its massive presence, by far the most emotionally compelling experience at The Wall was all of the letters, flowers, and personal mementos left by family and friends of fallen comrades. I found the experience to be emotionally overwhelming.

As for a Turk hacking the VVMW website, can you blame him or her? As What's His Unspellable Persian Name From Iran showed us this week, there is a profound culture gap that is by far, the biggest threat to world peace and prosperity at present. Too bad that the Middle East has oil. If they didn't, we could just dump them into a shit can, like we've done with Africa. Like Africa, we could just let them revert to their historical behavior and try to hack themselves to death.

fredf, I hope you read this because I fear that few others will appreciate it.

I don't think the 'brain drain' at the Fray is a permanent thing. This board goes through ebbs and flows just like any other social community. It will be back. What is most mind-numbing to me is when certain posters can't stop posting drivel in reponse to serious political discussion. Or even in response to not so serious discussion. It derails the entire process, and mind-numbing is the only word I can think of.

As for the Memorials, that reminds me that this past weekend I visited the Museum of the South Pacific in Fredericksburg. A little off topic, but I would like to get the opinion of some of you vets on this. The concept was the same as the Vietnam memorial with a dedication wall, but there were plaques instead of lists of names. It was very moving, and we happened to walk into the garden right when a trumpeter began playing Taps. A man who was wearing a Vietnam hat was placing a wreath of flowers beside one of the plaques, and an older couple (about his same generation) was talking to him about his service. You could tell he wasn't really in the mood to talk, but they kept on. Finally at the end of their conversation, the couple started to walk off and the woman said "And thank you so much for your service in Vietnam, we really appreciate it." The vet just looked at them and said "sure," but I will never forget that moment because right then it hit me how inadequate, and inappropriate even, saying thanks in such a flippant manner truly is. I could just imagine what horrible things that vet probably saw, experienced, and has carried around with him for the rest of his life, and he is supposed to feel gratitude for people who tell him 'thank you?' The woman probably felt like she was doing such a service by telling him thank you, but I wonder how much it actually meant to the vet. Anyway, I may have completely misinterpreted the exhange, but it just seemed so insincere of the woman and like she was saying it because it's the fashionable thing to do these days. Bet you anything she was a spitter when the soldiers came home, but that's being judgemental, I know...

It just really left me with the feeling that if you are going to say thank you to a vet you better mean it and you better do it with sincerity. Not as you are waving, smiling, and walking off.

Al has been told " thank you for serving " and it meant much to him. He is not one to split straws and at the age of 66 he enjoys conversations with other retired Service Guys. He was Navy communications. Retirement is a time to enjoy and reminisce.

Don't know if I can address all of your points prag, but I will try.

1. As far as key people being missing, I feel you are partly right. There are some posters that I have wanted to hear an opinion from; while there are others who are so damn opinionated and predictable that I have been glad to see them go. When I went down frans throat with a Claymore it wasn't because I dis-agreed with her. It was because I was sick of seeing her manipulate her own posts to keep them on the board under the system the Fray was trying out. I don't care if she ever comes back.

2. The decline in intellectual dis-course isn't complete just yet. I've posted some entertainment type info for Tex because I thought she might be interested but I'm not sure about the "touchie-feely posts." I don't read every post and reply so I may have missed the ones you are referring to. I mentioned in a previous post also, that we are in a kind of limbo on issues. The election campaign has started early yet the candidates aren't saying a lot you can debate one way or the other. They are being so careful to not make a major faux pax this early that they all sound like Boy Scout Troop Leaders.

3. The desecration of the Wall was the act of a coward but it received little if any main stream press. If it wasn't for a couple of Washington TV stations we might never have heard about it. Seeing something associated with Viet Nam being defiled doesn't surprise me. An entire part of a generation(us) was defiled by the other part(them); so desecration of a monument is about par for the course.

4. My Vets group went to the Memorial to be there for the dedication. It was a surreal day; some vets were pissed because of the style of the Memorial, others were just glad to see that one had been built in their lifetime. We all looked old beyond our years and had to laugh at how we had turned out or else we would have wept. We all hugged total strangers just because we had one bond in common; we had survived. I found all the names I was looking for including one that I didn't know personally but had heard of. It was a kid from Missouri whose last name was Deathrage. I have always wondered if he had his name changed from something else because he could foresee his fate early on.

5. As for the Middle East and it's oil; sometimes when my mind wanders more than usual, I envision some Cal Tech graduate in his garage coming up with a Perpetual Motion Engine that runs on air and exhausts water. I can even imagine the world wide panic as the US shuts down it's petroleum business while Osama has a stroke trying to figure out a way to get the US to come back and look for him. Silly dream I know, but a pleasant one.

Cagle is far from dead, just a little fatigued and saving up for the next round when the primaries start.

Tex, I'd have had to be there to see how she said it. For me, a sincere "thank you" means one hell of a lot, even more than "sorry you had to go through Hell for us". To give you an idea of how emotional an issue this is for me, I started to cry when you started talking about the bugler playing Taps and the woman saying "thank you" to the vet. It's almost 25 years later and my emotions still are very deep and powerful --- feelings of grief, helplessness, rage, visceral fear, horror, camaraderie, the whole gamut.

155, I agree that there still is good stuff going on, just not as much as before. Like you, I miss several people who used to post often and I don't miss others one little bit.

I made fun of the desecration of The Wall, and for that I apologize. I can't imagine why anyone would want to do such a thing unless it was just a random, thoughtless act, like a drunk keying cars or kids pushing over grave stones. I was mesmerized by the design of the wall from the first time I saw a picture of it, and to see it in person was simply overwhelming and stunning. I just stood there and stared and I still can remember that day vividly --- and I'm a guy who normally has a very poor visual memory. It is stark, somber, and dark, and the low-to-high-to-low design perfectly captures the increase, peak, and decrease in violence of the conflict. Also, to me, the fact that it sinks into the ground symbolizes both the graves of the fallen and the hopeless morass of that war. Most of all, though, it was the names of the dead, the vets, the mourners, and the mementos that most moved me. People were silent or talked in low voices or whispers, just like in a sacred shrine, which I guess the VVMW is, consecrated by the deaths of all of those people whose names are on the wall and many whose names aren't but should be --- those forgotten or those broken by the war.

As for the candidates making any statements truly worth discussing here, I'm not holding my breath. They're tap dancing around the most difficult, substantive issues because they don't want to offend.

I've never been to the Vietnam Memorial. I have of course seen pictures of it, and have gone to sections of it on line to see the names of fallen comrades, but I don't think I'd ever want to personally visit it. Nothing wrong in going or not going. Just a personal preference. My saddest occasion was at Pearl Harbor, when I visited the Arizona Memorial. Don't know why, unless it was the rusted hulk below you, and the names on the wall.

The Arizona resulted in the single most loss of lives in a single incident at Pearl Harbor. To my very great chagrin, the USS Oklahoma, which was the second costliest loss of life in a single incident at Pearl Harbor. Over five-hundred souls lost on that fine ship, and barely a mention. But I digress.

Good post, Fred. And good responses, particularly by Prag.

We have become lax as of late. Maybe post or pre election blahs. Regarding Wolfen, though Tsuku would obviously disagree, someone who is capable of making very good posts.

Don't know why Unebug is so unpopular, or why many on the board have all abandoned any civility or decorum when addressing her. Actually, a very nice lady, who actually contacted my by phone to make sure I was alright when I went off the board for a while. As for her politics, simply that, Merely a matter of what she believes, and nothing more. One may freely rebut her, but a little civility would seem to be in order.

As for world news, I've started to comment many times on current events, but often don't follow the news enough to give an intelligent response on many of the top stories of any given day.

Regarding Michael Vick, back in the news again. Just another example of how fame and power corrupts though.

Regarding Iran's president, I don't even want to get started.

Iraq's president was warning neighboring nations (Iran) that the flow of arms into Iraq needs to be stopped or there would be serious consequences. I won't even elaborate on what is just an empty threat without U.S. might to back it.

Regarding U.S. might, as Tsuku would say, Bush is sucking the President of Iran's pee pee. Lame speech before the U.N.. Even tried to avoid the issue of Iran's interference in Iran.

Regarding the war, untenable without sealing the borders.

Politics. Everyone probably just trying to put off the inevitable, until we are forced to deal with, it ad nauseum. Again to paraphrase Tsuku, all the candidates seem to suck pee pee. Except perhaps for Hillary, who may have more of a rug fetish. But no need to elaborate on that.

Hopefully, we'll come out of our doldrums. At least I'm becoming more dexterous on the guitar, though I doubt that I'll ever get back to where I was 25 years ago.

Again Fred, good post. I think I'll spare you the Little Red Riding Hood/Bushstock thingie. Can't get it off the ground anyway Unebug would have made a great granny, and Everlong, the evil wolf who wasted her in the classic tale. Hurricane would make a good wood cutter, the true hero of the story, who wasted the wolf and saved little Fred from the Evelrong beast. Though not in time to save Granny Unebug. Wonder if that was intentional?

As for Bush, last seen sitting in a vacant field, with an equally blank gaze in his eyes, saying "Saddam, WMDs..." I will never forgive him for teaching my stoned parrot those phrases though. Poor Polly, the damned bird was to give Dubya elocution lessons, but fried her own brain in the process.

Well, much like the world scene, and the political picture, I think I'll just go Up In Smoke.

I passed a silent candle vigil at the Brattleboro Common when the war started and a feeling of disgust passed over my body. Here we go again! the turmoil of the government lies. the Agent orange, the boys having to escape to Canada to avoid being killed by people who did not want us in their country. I attended a Church Service all denominations and religions and the music was Patriotic and Upbeat. I felt disgust. The music should have been somber and grieving. What is war!!! My feelings are strong. I do not want my loved ones dying so some rich cats and their children can get richer.

It has been fun to converse with you and being made aware that nice folks can have different viewpoints. Everlong made Republicans sound like America and apple pie. I see them as greedy capitalist. For us to expect everyone to be able to converse on the same level is unrealistic. We live in a diverse world; knowledge is sort of limited to our age and background. I do not see us maybe just me as ever going back to the innocense that we can make a difference. Maybe it is the pendulum that will just have to take over. We can report the latest climate change result but that will get old and who wants to hear I told you so. No the party is over. Big D sounded discouraged too.

I am not in dr-fran's league. She is knowledgable and wonderful with words and thoughts. I just enjoy trying to formulate my own thoughts about how this world works. I am not very good at understanding others thoughts. I listen to Democracy Now and read Truthout. I love Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky , Gore Vidal, Mark Twain's opinion about war,etc. I will work for fairness for the person who does not have power. Such is life. I do not take offense if you do not accept my viewpoint because you are just not in the same league as the above writers. You do not watch Democracy Now and you are under the spell of the main stream Media. Simple. I was there too at one time. I was shy about protesting against segregation when I did not go to the Greensboro N.C. Woolworths that fateful day long ago. Things change; sometimes too slowly. Years later there was another protest in Greensboro and people died I believe. I was not there then. Involvement in life, enjoy and maybe we just live in the best of all possible worlds; we have to have war so we will appreciate peace. Anyway who is to say that the person that gets the most responses is the best poster. Maybe words make people think and they do not want an answer, just thought. Go out and do something good. Justify your beliefs.the reason for you to be here.

War is the most repellent single atrocity that man can perpetrate upon his fellow man. I'm not a pacifist by nature, but I do believe we, as a species, need to find a way to resolve our differences.

Regarding this war in particular, one that was totally unnecessary, and one that should not have been started. But that being said, it is also a conflict that Iran's clandestine intervention into this conflict which has made our presence in the region a necessity. Iraq's leader has warned of dire consequences for those who covertly supply the insurgency in Iraq.

To be sure, an empty threat. As even our own leadership won't take the necessary steps to secure Iraq's borders, and to bring either sufficient pressure to bear against Iran, either diplomatically or militarily to stop their unwarranted intrusion into Iraq's internal affairs.

Regarding our leadership, to be sure there is an evil here at work. But there is also a great evil in our adversaries. In the final analysis, which is the greater evil would depend on which side of the fence you're on. One thing is certain though, a pull out from Iraq will be a major victory for the terrorist elements. Leaving us with yet another fight in the future, which will inevitably be more dangerous, and much closer to home.

I don't know what the answer is here. I only know that war begets more war. A cycle which will only be broken when the earth is shrouded in a mushroom cloud.

But one can not lay down either, and let evil influences as wicked as Hitler or Stalin ever were, impose their will upon the world. The sad fact of the matter is that sometimes we have to fight. Our be-knighted fool, and yes, fool he be, chose the wrong nation in which to take a stand. But having proverbially drawn a line in the sand, we have to defend that piece of terrain. A very unfortunate, but necessary situation.

You will get no argument from me that our leadership is corrupt, unjust, and yes, even evil. But we are not the only evil. Those who oppose us are every bit as wicked, every bit as influenced by their own deluded agenda. and every bit as short sighted as our own leadership is.

Which leaves one with the dubious choice of supporting our own tyrants, or those of another mindset and philosophy.

WE, THE PEOPLE, Republican, Democrat, and Independent alike, are screwed, Unebug. We have ever been screwed, and probably ever shall be. It's simply a matter of whom we choose to be screwed by.

Maybe one day we'll outgrow this childish nationalism that would seem to grip all nations, creeds, and religions. Or, more likely, mankind will one day literally go up in smoke, a victim of his own ignorance and folly.

Until we are though, or until we are willing to accept Allah's, Jehovah's, or whomever's, dubious blessings, we have to stand against that which actively threatens our own way of life.

As Fred said, you have to defend your own herd. This is why I changed my own stance on the conflict in Iraq. Iran's intervention turned it into a legitimate conflict, Though at the onset, it wasn't.

Next year it's highly likely that the Dems will take back the White House, and retain control of Congress. This war will soon be over after that, but one more potentially serious and threatening will take it's place.

Bush may have drawn a line in the sand in the wrong damned nation, but that line has to be defended. Only a pity that Bush doesn't have the balls to finish what he so ill-advisedly started.

More the pity that the American people will demand our withdrawal from Iraq in the foreseeable future. No golden age of Aquarius will follow that withdrawal.

Only more conflict, which will bring us to Armageddon's doorstep.

Don't know whether the board will turn around or not. Hope that it does, but if it doesn't, it's been a pleasure exchanging thoughts and ideas with you as well. You may have some problems with your articulation at times, but there's nothing foolish or insane about your basic message. You only point out a sad truth, in that we will be the ultimate means of our own destruction.

I left my own idealism in the jungles of Vietnam. I think most of us lose our idealism for one reason or another at some juncture in our lives. You and dear Dr Fran would seem to be the exceptions.

No sin in pointing out our faults as a society.

I would only say though, that we are not the only ones capable of living down to our basest insticts.

Which has made Bush's grave little miscalculation a necessity.

This is one struggle that we dare not back down from, or lose.

I'm not about to trade my headband in for a turban, and that is what our foes want here.

For better or worse, Iraq belongs to all of us.