...eight-track tapes and Super 8 home movies do.

Never.

The anecdotal evidence is that during WWII, many young men lied about their age to get into the military right away, and soldiers often moved heaven and earth to get to the battlefield "before it was all over." Many served, and those who did not were looked down upon.

That was "a good war" and the movie propaganda was in place to make sure that everybody knew "why we fight" and wanted to go. "Destination: Tokyo." "Casablanca." "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo." Even the postwar film "Best Years of Our Lives" suggested that despite the uprooting and devastation of war (a key character lost his hands in the war and ended up with hooks, as did the ACTOR who played him, in real life during the war), it was still "the right thing to do." When a man tells the hook-handed man that he lost his hands "for nothing, for a war we didn't belong in," that man gets decked.

Many families had men in the military. Families got used to men dying young, or coming home disabled. Other men did their duty and returned.

To some extent, veteran fathers brow-beat their sons into service in the "next war" (like Fraternity hazing, the newbies are expected to sacrifice), or sons wanted to live up TO their fathers. It was a way of life.

Then came: Korea, the fifties, Dr. Spock, the sixties, Vietnam, LBJ, the counterculture, college deferments, Nixon and Watergate, and..."the Great Divorce": the end of the draft in 1973, which severed the mainstream of American society from the military for good.

The movie business, which had once been the maker of propaganda for war, became the center of powerful anti-war filmmaking: Paths of Glory, Dr. Strangelove, Patton, MASH, Catch-22, Johnny Got His Gun, The Deer Hunter, Coming Home, Apocalypse Now, Platoon, Full Metal Jacket. Even Steven Spielberg's take on "the Good War" -- "Saving Private Ryan" -- made sure that we apreciated the savage deaths and excruciating pain of battle. Those soldiers stopped the horrors depicted in "Schindler's List," but Spielberg seemed to say: at what cost?

The "great divorce" ended the utilization of boot camp upon draftees as a behavior-modification machine that at once "made men out of boys" and sadistically bullied them, weeding out the weak with Darwinian precision before battle. Would Rush Limbaugh or Michael Moore have survived?

In the meantime, the media has done a bang-up job of giving us "warts-and-all" analysis of our leaders. It started with LBJ and Nixon, and retroactively "got" JFK, but it has kept going to the point where any parent would have to ask: sacrifice my child for THAT President?

The times changed. Its been almost two generations since the draft ended; few veteran fathers exist who CAN brow-beat their sons into service.

Everybody's wised-up and not terribly interested in the possiblity of death and sacrifice too young. The public relations effort necessary to develop support for a draft cannot exist in the current marketplace of ideas.

This is not to ignore the voluntary participation of men and women who take all of the above into account and still make the decision to serve. But COMPELLING the performance of military service?

Not in this lifetime.

Unless terrorism reaches the point where citizens determine that it is absolutely necessary....

but needs one wee correction...

Russell didn't lose his hands in the war...but in the war effort.

I think it happened while he was training troops in North Carolina. (I'm certain he was stateside.) He was an instructor there. I think he was teaching ordnance, and a bomb exploded...bad fuse or something.

Fair enough. Consider the post corrected. I suspect other corrections may be necessary, but those are my memories as best I can assemble them.

Certainly Russell's fictional character lost his hands in the war, though on board a ship rather than on the battlefield, as I think I recall.

except, i was thinking his ship was under attack...

it's been years...

god, i loved that movie.

i think my favorite scenes were of him and his girlfriend...i remember her hugging him...and him not hugging back, and i wanna cry just thinking about it.

but the other love story was cool, too..dana andrews and the top sergeant's daughter.

I agree with most of your statement however I would like to add that as a career soldier I actually don't consider myself as working or serving for a particular President, although he is my Commander in Chief. I tend to think of it as working for my Country. There have been Presidents in my lifetime that in my opinion wouldn't make a pimple on a real Presidents ass, but I managed to muddle through and continue my service.

I truly believe that the Patriot is instilled in all of us, it just takes more trauma, death and destruction to bring it out and on the forefront for some. Other only require the raising of the Flag or the singing of the National Anthem to shed a tear in pride for their Country.

I am also of the opinion that America does need some sort of Selective Service obligation, be it Military, Community service, Peace Corps, even sending our bright young people to impoverished Countries,to teach and learn about their culture as well. The general consensus for the actual amount of time to spend in a particular would be a minimum of 2 years. Not everyone is a warrior, nor will they ever be a warrior, but they could be a Teacher, Agriculturist, Carpenter, Mason, Road Builder, Physician, etc. Call it displaced education, and even go as far as giving College credits for the service.

The old addage of "you catch more flies with Honey than Vinegar" goes for people as well. If you make a Community service an attractive idea more people would buy into it. This is not the draft persay rather an alternative for those opposed to military service to at least contribute something toward an effort of making someones life more bearable. The military has many programs (Corp of Engineers being a good example) that build roads and schools in war torn countries, but think about how much more we could do if we had civilian volunteers who were there helping out? The trained soldier could do something else, while the trained civilian did his part.

Overall I agree with the subject topics of your article, and applaud you for your insight into the subject.

As you are a career soldier, I am honored that you read my post and responded with expertise and an informed opinion.

Those are my beliefs, in general, based on many years of personal observation and reading, and based upon my memories of the military men and women in the generation before me, in my family and the families of friends.

luca:

Where did you get the impression, fathers brow beat sons to enlist? Mine was horrified when I enlisted in 67 with the Marines and he was a WWII vet. My mom used to talk of his looking out the window from our home. I suspect this was more the minority than a majority when it comes to fathers pushing sons. Any dad who served in WWII knew the horrors of war.

Two weeks ago, I went back east to Buffalo to be at a memorial for my Uncle, the last of the surviving uncles who also served (WWII). My cousins from all over the states came, about 30 of us. It was like "The Big Chill" in retrospect. I introduced myself to some and was warmly greeted by them. My wife met them for the first time, this family of cousins and we set together at the memorial, dined together later, visited the graves of our families, and skipped rocks on Lake Erie. We joined together as we did as children.

Amongst the 30 was myself, a Marine Sergeant who served, a cousin who flew F4s as a Major, another Marine - Master Gunnery Sergeant, a Petty Officer, an Army participant (hey, he didn't know the family was Navy) . . .

We came from a family that were steel workers out east who all went to war in WWII. There was no brow beating by fathers, we did what we did because we "thought" it was right. We now know what our fathers knew about our departure to war.

I got impressions both ways. Things I heard, things I saw. Some WERE brow-beaten, but others were nothing but proud to serve, with their fathers and mothers deeply upset about the prospect of losing their children.

Well, at this point, I guess I'll stand by my initial post "as is."

To the extent the original post is drawing these solid memories from those who have served, I feel I've said enough.

Luca:

neither did we ask our fathers. We just went because they had gone before us. I know of no father who browbeat their child into enlisting Unless, unless they were in trouble with the law. At which point, the judge looked the other way.

I disagree with your end result.

A veteran.

In the 50's and early 60's maybe it was the case that there was pressure for boys to enlist if they weren't going to college, or to consider ROTC if they were.

By 1971, when I was drafted, my dad counseled me with a great deal of wisdom. The Vietnam war was not about patriotism, by then. It was not about protecting our homes from an impending attack. It was about continuing the war until we got the best deal we could from the North Vietnamese. My dad said he'd help me if I wanted to go to Canada, but I had no skills and no way to support myself. There was no guarantee that I'd ever be able to return. He suggested Navy or Air Force as a way to serve without having to go to VietNam.....at least the odds were better. I spent my time in the Navy and must admit to a certain sorrow when I am with fellow vets who have sacrificed so much, even if it was in such a stupid war.

If the circumstances had been the same as World War II, I'm sure we would have seen it quite differently.

Patriotism still alive today.

I do not claim to know the frist thing about war. I am only a mother with a son who is in love with the idea of being a hero.

It terrifies me to know that he will probably join the forces when he is old enough to. At the same time, it gives me great pride to know that he has his morals in line. He wants to protect 'his people'. He loves to hear stories about his great Grand-pa serving in WWII. He loves the military channel. He loves anything to do with the military..period.

The thought that he will someday go overseas and go into combat makes my heart skip a beat. I don't know how I would handle him fighting for our country, but I would do so as an extremely proud Momma. After all, you know that you have done something right when your children sacrifice for a greater good. Isn't that what God would have us do?

I doubt there will be another draft, I think its political suicide, though I disagree with most of the OP's reasons.

I think people did know that much of the war movies were propaganda before WWII, because their fathers and grandfathers had stories of The Great War. The generation who fought that war was still reeling from the brutality, and would do anything to prevent a new conflict. Thats why Churchill started out as such a lone voice - everyone desperatly wanted to believe that Hitler was a rational man and that there would be peace in our time. Those stories of the brutality of modern warfare would have been passed to the generation gearing up to fight fascism.

I think the propaganda is still churning on, possibly even more effectivly, because in the 21st century media, you're there, on the field of battle. With John Wayne, you're not on Iwo Jima, its black and white, you have to suspend your disbelief - because its clearly not real. With Saving Private Ryan, you can loose yourself in the movie - you hear the bullets hitting the side of the Higgens boat because the theater has Suroundsound, theres chaos on the beach and godawful carnage, which you can see, first person perspective. You can put yourself on the banks of the Volga as a Russian soldier in Call of Duty, you can put yourself on Omaha Beach in Day of Defeat, you can fight it out with the bads in Iraq in America's Army (a computer game brought to you courtesy of the US Army).

The reasons people joined the military in the past still hold true today. You grow up in poverty, like my parents did, like a lot of my classmates did, you join the service as a way out.

You want to see the world, you want a challenge, you want to serve your contry, like I did, you join the service.

You want to be that Navy pilot Tom Cruise portrayed in Top Gun, like many of my classmates did, you join.

My father was career military, met my mother while they were both serving in the Navy. He didnt brow-beat me, he just told me what was what about the military. Sat with me while the recruiters did their song and dance. Told me which ones were lying (Navy recruiter: You know what I think you should do? Boiler technician.)

The strength of our military has always been the citizen soldier. The soldier, who, no matter what illusions he joined under, did join of his own free will, who was not forced to make an oath to uphold the Constitution and defend it against all enemies, foreign and domestic. A draft must only come when the gravest of threats is posed, when the very core of what is democracy is threatened. That came with Hitler, that came with the Civil War, when the threat was so large, so immediate, that a draft was a necessity.

Iraq was not necessary, it is an aboration of greed and pride. If theres a draft to fight for the honor of House Bush, I say, burn your draft card.

middleview:

Any father who served would not force his son into the military. You saw it correctly. That luca does not is not indicative of reality. I disagree with him and you add another story to bolster my point. I know of no families that brow beat sons to join for Vietnam where the father was a vet. They might approve; but, they would not push for it. And your father, whether a vet or not . . . understood that he wanted you around. God Bless him.

I am a Marine Veteran, a Sergeant E-5 of the sixties. My family all served and we recently met back in Buffalo with our other cousins who did not serve. It was great to see them after 30 and 40 years. Whether you went to Canada or served is of no importance to me. What you are today is of greater importance. We gave to much and I have way to many tracings from a wall, I will never go to see. Their memories will always be with me.

Let it die. You made the right choice for yourself the same as those who went to Canada. I drink beer with many who have a past not worth worrying about.

Hoist one with me?

Middleview: I didn't go to Canada, but I did burn my draft card. I went to DC to march against the war - and got my head beat in, first by flag-waving bystanders and then by the cops. Had the US been attacked, as it was in WWII, I would have enlisted and served with pride (and, admittedly, no little trepidation). We were lied to about why we went there. We were lied to about what we doing while we were there. We were lied to about virtually every aspect of that war. Sound familiar? It should. It's happening all over again.

Ken457: Mandatory Community Service? Hell yes! I'll even sign up voluntarily (at 54) to belatedly do my share. But not compulsory military service. I will not support allowing my government to not only launch a war based on a pack of lies, but literally haul kids off the streets and force them to go kill or die to fight it. I'll support a draft when politicians stop lying to us about why we are going to war and how we are going to cunduct it. As for catching more flies with honey than vinegar, I think Woody (from "Cheers") hit it right on the money when he said, "Actually, in my experience, you catch the most flies with a dead squirrel", but that aside, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Run75441: Hell, I'd be proud to hoist one with you - and Middleview and Ken too - any time. I'll even buy. I have no issue with the soldiers who went off to fight these wars. In '71, I personally smacked a roommate upside the head for spitting on a returning vet and calling him a "baby killer". I respect their service and their sacrifices even if I don't share their political beliefs, and always have. That, in fact, is the reason I protested then and still protest now to "bring the boys home". Near as I can tell, it is not unpatriotic to want your country to avoid unjust wars, nor to want to be certain that our servicemen do not get sent off to die for the wrong reasons. Two things Vietnam should have taught us all: First, killing for peace is like screwing for chastity. That ain't the way it works. Second, you cannot save a country from the people who live in it.

I respect people who have the courage of their convictions. I felt strongly about serving my country, but also felt that the war in Vietnam was only being fought in 1971 because Nixon and Kissinger were looking for political advantage. Joining the Navy to avoid being a victim of their efforts was hardly courageous, but I'm not sure that joining the Marines and taking part would have been bravery or stupidity, but at least I'd be proud to stand next to others who risked their lives at the time. Instead, I have more to share with George W. Bush about finding a way to stay safe.

So, I live in Denver. Any pub halfway to your house will do.