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how many does it take
by leekee
+1 Reply

to reach holocaust? If 6 million is the number, then there have been lots since the Germans killed the Jews. The Germans killed a lot of Russians. The Russians killed a lot of Germans. The Russians killed more than 6 million Russians. The U.S.A. killed lots of Japanese, Panamanians, Colombians, Vietnamese, Lebanese, and Iraqis. Plenty of other examples.

How many dead in Rosenbaum's second holocaust? How much of the "historical experience" of other holocausts does he "empathize" with? Is that a fair question? The article is about Jewish dead, not Cambodians or any of that crap. Be fair to Ron.

But that's how he attacks his subject; exclude the middle, pick examples out of context, and create one straw man after another.

If he objects to the word, "stranglehold," when was the last time funds for Israel were cut? Oye.

<Despite their many caveats, one comes away from the book feeling that the authors—who subscribe to the "realist" school of foreign policy, which subordinates moral questions in international affairs to considerations of power—believe that the world rightfully dislikes the Israeli regime>

Could ve include mebe just one little itty bitty caveat, vhatta ya say? Or what should we use instead of power? Whose morals, I ask you? Because it is absolutely true that the British took the best land in Palestine, ran off or subjugated all the Arabs on that land, and then the new owners methodically exercised military power ruthlessly, I guess you could say less than "realistically," and thus, by Rosenblum's own logic, immorally, to expand that territory and continues to this day. Are the Palestinians and Hamas and Hezbolah guilty of crimes against Israel and Israeli women and children? Well, that depends on your definition of crime. Or perhaps terrorism.

So lets call in an expert. And first of all we must acknowledge that the only qualified experts on morality, terrorism, "moral imagination (lets not analyze that construction--we might end up somewhere northeast of Breslau, or maybe deep in a De Beers diamond mine near Pretoria) and law are Americans. Since Rosenbaum suggests the Arabs making the threats about the existence of Israel have nuclear weapons (even though Hamas {ethnic Hitler's one must assume}, the Lebanese, Hezbolah, etc. don't), lets call in the world's number one expert on the use of the atomic bomb, current favorite of GW Bush (let that simmer on the back burner):Harry S. Truman, President of the United States, 1945-1953. From the Truman library:

Mr. Harrison explained he had recently received through Dr. A.H. Compton a report from a group of the scientists at Chicago recommending, among other things, that the weapon not be used in this war but that a purely technical test be conducted that would be make known to other countries. Mr. Harrison had turned this report over to the Scientific Panel for study and recommendation. Part II of the report of the Scientific Panel stated they saw no acceptable alternative to direct military use. The Committee reaffirmed the position taken at the 31 May and 1 June meetings that the weapon be used against Japan at the earliest opportunity, that it be used without warning, and that it be used on a dual target, namely, a military installation or war plant surrounded by or adjacent to nearby homes or other buildings susceptible to damage.

I point to the clause that notes the atomic bomb will destroy "homes and other buildings." Since the military aspects of the target(s) have been previously identified, what could these other targets be but schools, hospitals, or flower gardens? Who's number one, baby?

So lets not get carried away with the second holocaust. Israel might negotiate more sincerely without an arsenal second only to Big Daddy's. Are the Saudis our allies or not?

Oh, and by the way, if an avid student of Middle Eastern history were to look real close, that student would discover who it was that is credited with the invention of the suicide bomb delivered to crowded public space by a truck.

Re: how many does it take
by San

A holocaust is the genocide of Jews. Even the killing of 50,000 is inacting a holocaust.

And Palestine is not where Israel is. The British beat the Ottomans. The Jews who have lived there under Ottoman rule wanted their own independent nation, like every other group. The Palestinians were living in northern Jordan and Western Syria. Thats where Palestine was supposed to be.

But racists like Amin al Hussein started killing British troops and causing riots in the 30s to stop the plan to allow the Jews to have their own state. Its no surprise that Amin al Hussein went to Hungary and started killing Jews there for Hitler along with the other 20,000 arab SS troops under his command.

And the fact that you claim Israel has nukes already shows that you ascribe to paranoia ramblings of conspiracy theorists.

I bet you think that Israel was covering up aliens as roswell, right? Did the Jews hide Bigfoot too?

You are a freak without any undrestanding of history.

Re: how many does it take
by Snarfangel
San:
And the fact that you claim Israel has nukes already shows that you ascribe to paranoia ramblings of conspiracy theorists.

I bet you think that Israel was covering up aliens as roswell, right? Did the Jews hide Bigfoot too?

Here is an interesting article on Israel's atomic weapons put out by the Federation of American Scientists: <link>

And here is an article about the Federation of American Scientists, in case you've never heard of them: <link>

Wikipedia also has an article on the subect: <link>

Now, you might disagree with them, but they do provide corroberating evidence -- and in the case of the Wikipedia article, you are free to edit the article if you have more accurate information.

Re: how many does it take
by San

Wikipedia means complete bs.

As does your link.

People have actually provided photographs of aliens at Roswell.

Their conspiracy theory has a lot more evidence than your bull crap.

Re: how many does it take
by Snarfangel
San:
Wikipedia means complete bs.
That's what the links at the end are for.
San:
As does your link.
The Federation of American Scientists?
San:
People have actually provided photographs of aliens at Roswell.

Their conspiracy theory has a lot more evidence than your bull crap.

More to the point, the Roswell conspiracy theorists have provided more "evidence" than you have, which is pretty sad. Israel having nukes has been an open secret for years -- here's a New York Times article (which I realize won't meet your demanding standards of evidence) from 1998: <link>

To quote:

Israel's possession of nuclear weapons has been widely suspected for decades, because the threat of such a weapon was presumed to be the purpose behind the Dimona nuclear plant. But by refusing to acknowledge them, Israel has spared the United States the need to impose sanctions under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. 

''We managed to create sufficient suspicion for there to be deterrent, without having gotten to a status of clarity which would behoove sanctions against us,'' Shimon Peres, who as a young official was instrumental in building Dimona, said in a recent interview. 

In December 1995, Mr. Peres, then Prime Minister, came closest of any Israeli official to acknowledging that Israel had the bomb and suggested that it could get rid of it once it was at peace with all its neighbors. 

''If there will be a regional peace, I think we can make the Middle East free of the nuclear threat,'' Mr. Peres said then.

Re: how many does it take
by San

"Israel's possession of nuclear weapons has been widely suspected for decades"

Suspected.

Even the times wont say they actually have them, only that there are those that suspect it. Just like there are those that suspect that aliens landed at Roswell.

Re: how many does it take
by Snarfangel
San:
"Israel's possession of nuclear weapons has been widely suspected for decades"

Suspected.

Even the times wont say they actually have them, only that there are those that suspect it. Just like there are those that suspect that aliens landed at Roswell.

I'd be fascinated to read any New York Times article stating that aliens were "widely believed" to have landed at Roswell, or that alien landings have been  "widely suspected for decades."  Even more interesting would be a quote from a U.S. government official saying that with real peace they could remove the alien "threat" in the western hemisphere, or Jane's Intelligence Review announcing that the numbers of flying saucers in Roswell "is larger than many estimates."

I'd even be interested in seeing a single reputable source that says that Israel does not have nuclear weapons. If you think the evidence of Israeli nukes is equivalent to Roswell aliens, I'd have to question your judgment.

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