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"Second Holocaust": So what?
by Fritz Gerlich
+1/-1 Reply

That got your attention, didn't it?

I'm not in favor of anybody holocausting anybody. And I disagree with a lot more in Rosenbaum's article that the single point I want to make here. For example, I think his "case" that Israel is in danger of any "second Holocaust" is absurd. But I want to ask: even if it wasn't absurd, why should it drive American policy?

Let's begin with the simple, undeniable fact that "holocausts" of all sizes and varieties have been happening throughout my life, which I imagine is about the same period as Rosenbaum's. On a few occasions, the United States government has invoked a humanitarian rationale for intervening, but generally only when it has other reasons for interveningl, and generally when the costs of intervention look commensurate with the benefits. That we are not in the global rescue business is adequately demonstrated by the long roster of butchery that we have chosen to turn a blind eye to, even though in principle we might have stopped it. I know of no one who seriously argues that by such selectiveness we have been committing crimes against humanity.

The conclusion I draw is that humanitarian grounds are themselves never compelling reasons to commit American forces to a foreign conflict. They may, in some circumstances, provide an ancillary reason to do something that we have additional, more compelling, reasons to do anyway. So, unless Jewish lives are intrinsically worth more than, say, Congolese, lives, Rosenbaum can make no convincing case for the United States to protect Israel from a second Holocaust" on purely humanitarian grounds.

If it could be shown that Israel offers some important value to American foreign policy, such that it is manifestly in our own hard-headed interest to protect it, then Rosenbaum would have a better case. But the only argument that can be made along those lines is that it is somehow useful to us to have Israel as an ally. As Mearsheimer and Walt acknowledge, that arument had some validity during the Cold War, when Israel could be a useful proxy holding Soviet proxies in check. But since the end of the Cold War, how does Israel serve our interests? We clearly don't need Israel to move an army to the Middle East and fight a prolonged war--we've done that twice without them. We don't need Israel to join us in the fighting--on the contrary, we beg them to stay out because they are a massive political liability where our Middle Eastern interests are concerned. We can scarcely claim to be using Israel to "promote democracy" in the Middle East--it is the one country we can never mention publicly when trying to persuade Middle Eastern governments to do something differently. And Israel certainly doesn't help bear the financial costs of all our efforts to defend its interests--we pay them. Where's the benefit, in all this, to us? There isn't any. The relationship is entirely one-sided.We give, Israel takes. This is all supposed to happen, and to keep on happening apparently forever, for purely "moral" reasons.

I say balls to that. I thought the Jews wanted their own ethnic state precisely because they didn't want to trust other nations with their defense. Well, they have it--and we've helped a lot. A lot. When did it become an endless obligation, no matter the cost to us? Those Jews who don't want to run the risks of Rosebaum's hypothetical "second Holocaust" can do what, e.g., millions of Iraqis are doing right now: they can find someplace else to live. Hard? Sure. But not as hard as it is for the Iraqis.

Anyway, Israeli policy is dead set against emigration. Except for those needed to man AIPAC in the United States, Israel would like all Jews to come there, to help with the looming demographic threat Israeli Jews face. But once they are there, Israel wants us to spend our blood, treasure and credibility to defend them. Nope, sorry, that's not the way nationalism works. You wanted a specifically Jewish nation, defend yourselves. You want American protection, become American.

There's also the question of feasibility. Even if a "second Holocaust" were a real threat, it is by no means clear that the United States could prevent it. I'm not going to argue what I think is quite obviously the case: that eventually Iran and many other "smaller" nations will possess at least some nuclear weapons. American policy might affect the timing, but cannot ultimately prevent it from happening--even if we were much more respected and trusted in the world than we now are.

So, assume Iran eventually has a bomb. What, exactly, is the United States supposed to do to prevent Iran from using it on Israel? Bomb them? Israel has its own conventional and nuclear deterrents. Why shouldn't they suffice? Because if they wouldn't suffice, then Rosenbaum's argument turns aganst him: if the supposedly hate-crazed Iranians are willing to take the losses of a nuclear war, then how could the United States stop them? If they're willing to trade Tehran for Tel Avv and Haifa, then the steering wheel has come off already and we aren't going to be able to do much about it--except look out for our own interests. In such a dangerous world, why should we distract ourselves and spend our resources trying to protect little Israel? We have ourselves to think of.

The truth is, of course that it is precisely Israel and American bullying that gives a nuclear deterrent such extraordinarily high value in nations like Iran. We--Israel and the United States--attack aybody we want at will. Rather understandably, other nations do not like beng so vulnerable. The rational approach, one would think, is to ask what kind of international order might reduce that feeling of vulnerability, as a way of reducing the incentive for these nations to go nuclear. In any event, we will eventually need an international security system that is adapted to the reality of proliferation. For it is coming.

For forty years the United States relied on a theory of "mutual assured destruction" to avoid direct war with the Soviet Union. It worked. Yet now, Rosenbaum tells us, the same theory must fail in the Middle East. Why? Because some mullah said that more Iranians than Israelis would survive a nuclear war. Well, Ron, maybe it will calm you down to hear that Mao Tse Tung used to say exactly the same thing about China. (Remember Mao? Red Guards, Cultural Revolution, Death to America, all that?) Yet when China got nuclear weapons, very much while Mao was in power, we didn't go apeshit. Nor did the Russians, or the Indians, or the Japanese. The new development got folded into the statecraft of the region, and Mao eventually died, and China evolved. There is no apriori reason for thinking that the Middle East is so drastically different. Yeah, Israel wants us to think it is. But that "po' l'l Israel" song has gotten kind of worn out, as Israel has consistently proved able and willing to kill at least ten Arabs for every Jew.

I know you like your phrase "second Holocaust," Ron. It's catchy, I agree. But you got it from a novelist, and it has no more substance than a piece of fiction. Even if it did, it does not follow that my country ought to go on sacrificing forever to satisfy the purity of your "moral vision." (Israel doesn't worry so much about moral purity, you know. They say, fuck that, let's kill somebody.) My country owes its first duty to its own citizens, its own interests. Israel made its bed, now let it lie there.

Re: "Second Holocaust": So what?
by San

"But I want to ask: even if it wasn't absurd, why should it drive American policy?"

Because they are our greatest and most exposed allie. If someone was threatening to wipe England off the map, or Japan, we would act too.

We do the same for Israel as we do for Taiwan, or did you forget all of those Guided Missle Cruisers we "loaned" them.

And that was in reaction to Mao getting nukes.

But you forgot that, how convenient.

Its nice how you can come to such amazing conclusions when you ignore 90% of history.

You're too stupid to bother with.
by Fritz Gerlich

But others might read your drivel, so I'll do them the courtesy of pointing out that the UK loaned us an army to fight Bush's idiotic war in Iraq (as well as loaning us some international credibility that our glorious president lacked), and Japan has stocked our department stores and automobile showrooms for a couple of generations, not to speak of providing much-needed liquidity so we can drive ourselves right over an economic cliff. Israel, on the other hand, has sucked up about $150 billion of our dollars, trashed our international credibility over and over, and given us oranges, wine and the Israel lobby in return.

Re: You're too stupid to bother with.
by San

Loaned? Our war?

No, it was a join war.

It wasn't the "US's" war, and the British have just as much to gain out of it.

But its fun how you try to put it all on Bush in order to skew the truth.

You have a problem with the truth, don't you.

But you don't have a problem with insulting Jews any chance you get.

If you support the Palestinians so much, why aren't you over there fighting to help them? Oh wait, thats one of the bs lines that idiots like you would use.

Re: "Second Holocaust": So what?
by o_hellenbach

The comparisons to Taiwan and China don't hold up. If somebody wiped Britain off the map, it would also indicate a shift in power on the European continent that would have a direct negative effect on US well-being. We protected Taiwan not because we liked them, but because the dominant paradigm at the time was the Cold War and containment of Communism. And at any rate, both those places were geographically useful from a military viewpoint, and not so incidentally we had signed mutual defense treaties with them. The point is that relations with those countries are defined by mutual concrete self-interest, not just a feeling that they're nice guys.

None of that is true of Israel, the heavy support of which is a net negative to the US by most measures you can name.

Re: "Second Holocaust": So what?
by San

"The comparisons to Taiwan and China don't hold up."

Oh wait, so the "Cold War" means that Taiwan isn't a strong trade partner?

What about the fact that the Cold War is over?

Oops, your argument doesn't hold water.

Who are you trying to kid?

You will twist history and reality to try and spew your racism.

Re: "Second Holocaust": So what?
by shvitz1983

"So, unless Jewish lives are intrinsically worth more than, say, Congolese, lives, Rosenbaum can make no convincing case for the United States to protect Israel from a second Holocaust" on purely humanitarian grounds."

Fritz:

On strictly humanitarian grounds, no. Then again, the Congo isn't threatening to attack the US.

Re: "Second Holocaust": So what?
by San
Don't forget, those in the Congo and other groups, like those in the Sudan, have Amnesty International and the International Red Cross who spend billions in lobbying for those causes, and at the same time, lobby against Israel.
Racism?
by o_hellenbach

Uh oh, sounds like somebody is playing the old "anti-semitism" card. Based on what? The idea that support for Israel is a net negative to the US? That makes me an anti-Semite? Get a fucking clue. I am so sick of the dishonest conflation of criticism of Israel or frank evaluation of what it costs the US with anti-Semitism that I could absolutely scream.

Listen, Israel is a burden to the US, but one that personally I don't mind bearing to a certain extent, even to the extent of writing a check to them to the tune of $500 per Israeli per year, because I really do believe a lot of that stuff about shared values and support for democracy and so on. But that doesn't change the hard reality that we're paying a heavy price for supporting Israel, and that a lot of what Israel does we shouldn't support anyway.

The deal is that (a) Israel doesn't exactly exemplify the best civilized values vis-a-vis its relations with its neighbors, and in particular in regards to its disgraceful policy of stealing and colonizing Palestinian land, and (b) the point of alliances is that there is supposed to be a mutuality that Israel frankly doesn't satisfy. We're supposed to be getting something out of this deal besides moral satisfaction. Israel is a pain in the ass and ends up pretty much always getting its way and always getting American support for whatever policy it undertakes, regardless of the rights and wrongs, and regardless of the negative consequences it causes the US. Maybe it's time for the US to expect a little more client-like behavior from its client state.

You're right that we are now bound by commercial interests to Taiwan, and they're an important economic player, and guess what? That's why we're still their ally, and that's why they still exist. If Taiwan's economy was on a per-capita par with Tibet's and if like Tibet they were landlocked and couldn't offer any strategic advantage to us because of their deep-water ports, they'd once again be a province of China--like Tibet. Our commercial and economic ties to Israel are tiny relative to what we have with Taiwan, and strategically they're a disadvantage to us. Israel's economy is small enough that it could disappear and we wouldn't notice a blip in our GDP. So once again, the difference between Taiwan and Israel is a matter of self-interest.

Re: "Second Holocaust": So what?
by o_hellenbach
shvitz1983:

"So, unless Jewish lives are intrinsically worth more than, say, Congolese, lives, Rosenbaum can make no convincing case for the United States to protect Israel from a second Holocaust" on purely humanitarian grounds."

Fritz:

On strictly humanitarian grounds, no. Then again, the Congo isn't threatening to attack the US.

And the Israelis are? Damn, here I thought that $3 billion a year was for foreign aid, and now you're telling me the Israelis are just extorting it from us in return for not attacking? Zow.

Re: "Second Holocaust": So what?
by o_hellenbach
Uh, can you give an example of the Amnesty International or the IRC lobbying against Israel? As opposed to lobbying against their policies vis-a-vis the Palestinians?
Re: Racism?
by San

Uh oh, sounds like somebody is playing the old "anti-semitism" card. Based on what? The idea that support for Israel is a net negative to the US? "That makes me an anti-Semite?"

No, the fact that you don't say that our support for Japan, Taiwain, England, Canada, Mexico, etc, is just as bad.

It makes you a racist hypocrite.

You singled out Israel.

You have an agenda against Israel.

Are you saying that Mexico is causing the US a problem by dumping 20 million illegal immigrants in our country?

No. Even though those illegals cost far more money in health care costs than we ever paid out to Israel.

Funny.

You are extremely selective because you are a racist.

And "regards to its neighbors"? Jordan and Egypt sure don't have a problem with Israel anymore.

And that "stealing" of Palestinian land? No. It was originally to be given to Israel, until the Palestinians started open warfare backed by Amin al Hussein against the British to demand that the British wouldn't give Israel a state. Palestine was supposed to be parts of Northern Transjordan, not the West Bank.

Its no surprise that Amin al Hussein joined with Hitler and ran a group of 20,000 Arab SS agents in Hungary and purged out the Jewish population.

Get a grip, man
by o_hellenbach

Israel is "singled out" in this thread because--guess what?--that's the subject of the thread! Jeez, what a maroon.

The point isn't that our support for Israel is necessairly "bad," except maybe in how we've let the Israelis steal Palestinian land. It's just far more costly in almost every way than support for those other countries. Furthermore, our relations with those other countries is based on concrete self-interest that support for Israel doesn't really provide. The Canadians, for instance, are part of NATO and provide troops for missions like in Afghanistan.

As far as the Israeli settlements not amounting to land theft, well, take it up with the UN. Oh, you don't like the UN? Fine, then we can just ditch the whole UN resolution that created and legitimized Israel....

Re: Get a grip, man
by San

"Israel is "singled out" in this thread because--guess what?--that's the subject of the thread! Jeez, what a maroon."

Israel is the subject of the thread because you are spreading hate against Israel.

You aren't objecting to lobbying groups as a whole. You aren't objecting to funding other nations as a whole.

You are objecting and catering your objection solely to Israel.

Why? Because you are a bigot.

No more backpeddling. You are called what you are. Either apology or deal with it.

Trying to reason with San...
by nbahn
...is like trying to reason with a bigot: It's an exercise in futility.
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