...live in peace with their neighbors, scattered throughout the world as all the other religions of the world do for the most part?

Why do those that follow the Jewish faith need or deserve their own country? The Buddists or Methodists dont have their own country....

What is it about the Jewish faith or culture that causes them such problems getting along peacefully with their neighbors? There have been at least two nations (Germany under the Nazi and under one of the Russians Czars...dont remember the details)...where they were either banished to Siberia or where attemps were made to exterminate them. Why? What were the cultural habits (or something else) that caused the Czar to say "Enough!" Im seriouslly curious. I have a Jewish girlfriend and dont have a prejudiced bone in my body when it comes to individuals but I have to admit Im a bit baffled by the U.S. governments reliance on a religious text (the Bible) as the foundation for its foreign policy. Please lets not waste our time with name calling or saying Im an anti-semite...blah blah blah. Please someone give me a quick insight or your reasoned opinion. Thanks

What an amazing exercise in blaming the victim! C'mon, play out this thinking a little further. Maybe the Jews "didn't know their place"? Maybe they were "asking for it"? Maybe they were "dressed too provocatively"?

It's astounding what this thread has brought to light.

You didnt respond to or try to answer any of my questions. Please Im not the one that banished them to Siberia. If you dont consider my questions legitimate please, without name calling, explain why. I seriously dont know the history that led up to their banishment to Siberia and yes I know its not the Frays responsibility to educate me....whatever.

Has there ever been a critical thoughtful psychology based study of why? Why and how am I blaming the victim. Im pretty darn sure Im referring to events that actually happened ...attempted extermination...banishment to Siberia... Why?

Does anyone else find it disturbing or dissapointing that the human species has not evolved beyond organized religion? OK OK utopian, pollyannaish, naieve ....whatever

When one reads about the pogroms and six million Jews being sent to the gas chambers, and one's reaction is, "what's wrong with the Jews that they ticked off the Tsar and the Nazis so badly?", that strikes me as blaming the victim.

Just because the questions are hopelessly naive doesn't give you justifiable cause to ridicule them. He's asking for information. If you cannot -- or will not -- provide that information it its appropriate context, then please stop your taunting.

Call me what you will, but the facts remain that as a culture they have been singled out for persecution. Again, why? And again, why do you think Im blaming them? Im not blaming anyone, or, if anything, I would blame Hitler or the Tsar for an unenlightened world perspective. I have several friends and aquaintences who either are for sure, or might be, followers of the Jewish faith. I actually dont care.

But anyway, you still didnt answer or comment on the question. Im not asking whats wrong with them that they ticked off the Tsar but yet apparently they did. Im asking why was Hitler or the Tsar so pissed off? I think there is a difference. Dont you? If not why?

Why did they see the Jewish faith or culture as the focus of whats wrong with the world or their country and that if they could just exterminate them or banish them things would be so much better? Just wondering...and I dont care if the question makes you uncomfortable.

Naming calling or otherwise questioning my motives or trying to discredit the questions does not change the historical facts.

Can anyone recommend a good book on this topic that addresses this underlying question? Does anyone know if there are other situations or eras or empires or governments where those that follow the Jewish faith were so uniformly persecuted ? (other than the original one from the "bible") Is it a issue of the culture and faith being so intertwined and if so why and how?

Hey, if you want to engage seriously with someone who asks "Why do the Jews keep getting themselves murdered?", be my guest.

Ted in Pa:

You are an idiot, but I'll still answer you're question:

The Jews are and have always been a convenient scapegoat. Up until the late 18th century, they lived in homogenous enclaves voluntarily segregated from the masses. The were the 'other' in society. Now, at the time the European masses were, for the most part, ignorant and uneducated, and easily manipulated by the propaganda of the ruling aristocracy. Now, of course the ruling class could not maintain their status if they were to receive the blame of the masses, so, who more convenient to blame than the Jew, whom no one saw on any kind of regular basis nor knew anything about concerning religious practices, customs, dress, or day to day life? Who could possibly be easier to demonize? And after all, and this is huge, "THEY KILLED CHRIST". Thus, let us lay out a few scenarios. Financial instability: blame the Jews. Bubonic plague: blame the Jews. A fire in the village: blame the Jews. A natural disaster: blame the Jews. Civil unrest: blame the Jews. You see where I'm going with this?

As for their role in the Muslim world (and I am of course referring to pre-1900 or so), they were never persecuted because they were integrated into civil society. In case you didn't know, Jews of European and Middle Eastern descent have two (not quite) completely different sets of cultural and religious practices, similar in ideology but variable in practice.

The big distinction between the segregated Jews of Europe and the cosmopolitan Jews of Middle East: the former was Christian, the latter was Muslim.

Ted in Pa, you just got a little less ignorant.

Read "World On Fire" by Amy Chua. It is about market dominant minorities and some of the problems they face. It deals with the experience of Jews in Europe but also the overseas Chinese in Southeast Asia and South Asians in some African countries like Uganda.

Here's why I think they've had trouble.

The idea that we have the right to be different and live amongst each other in peace is relatively new.

Throughout history people have moved around and have either assimilated into their new surroundings or conquered the indigenous people.

The Jews have to abide by certain ethical and cultural norms in order to comply with the rules of their religion. Thus their ability to assimilate is limited (unless they choose to stop being Jews). And they did not have the military or political power to conquer their neighbors during the diaspora period. So they were targetted by majority groups for various reasons.

It's not just the Jews.

Other religious minorities have been persecuted like the Cathars and Arians in Medieval Europe and the Mormons in 19th century America. Other cultural groups have been persecuted too, like the Rom (Gypsies) in Europe, the Armenians under the Young Turks, and conquered indigenous groups all over the world who resist assimilation.

Well put.

Thanks for the info. And so these Cathars and Arians in Medieval Europe and the Mormons in 19th century America, and these other cultural groups that have been persecuted too, like the Rom (Gypsies) in Europe, do they have their own country, their own AIPAC?

Dear Ted: first I believe there are no stupid questions. There are people who don't always know what or how to ask. There are also people who are too lazy or don't care. I suggest you contact a rabbi or a university with a Jewish studies program and ask for a reading list to help answer your questions. Maybe your girlfriend can help. You should interview and listen to people who survived the Holocaust, many of them children at the time, and ask what THEY did to deserve what happened to them and their families. I'm betting the answer is "nothing." It's no different than what has happened to other peoples, in other ages, including the American Indian, the Armenians, the Kurds, Australian Aborigines, and so on. Each of these peoples have their own religions, cultures, languages and homelands. Jews however are united by a covenant-faith (with various interpretations), part of which includes occupying a section of the Middle East. I believe the main reason Jews have such "problems" is that they insist on maintaining this covenant-faith and, as much as is possible, self-determination within a national homeland. Whether one believes God has a role in this is another question.

winstonsmiththe3rd:

Jews however are united by a covenant-faith (with various interpretations), part of which includes occupying a section of the Middle East.

Well, Zionism is at most 150 years old, while Talmudic Judaism is perhaps 1,500 years old. So this belief in the need for a racist homeland, which I doubt is an article of faith anyway, is a relatively new development, actually, and certainly many Jews aren't Zionists.

The Catholic Church successfully suppressed "heretical" sects like the Cathars and Arians in the Middle Ages. The Mormons fled farther west from New York, to Ohio, Missouri, Illinois and finally set up a semi-autonomous state in what later became Utah. The Rom don't have their own country and are still persecuted in parts of eastern Europe.

Israel isn't the only foreign country with a lobby composed of Americans dedicated to influencing U.S. foreign policy toward it.

There's the Cuba lobby.

One could make an argument similar to Mearsheimer and Walt with regard to that lobby. It would be: Communism's gone. Cuba is no longer a Soviet aircraft/missile carrier off the coast of Florida. So why does the U.S. still try to isolate Cuba, block U.S. corporations from doing business there and Americans from travelling there, why do Cubans still get preferential "wet foot, dry foot" immigration treatment, etc. This policy isn't good for the U.S. or for the people of Cuba and probably helps keep Castro in power.

We have other ethnic or one-country lobbies like the Greek lobby, which has influenced our policies toward Macedonia and Cyprus, and the Irish who encouraged the U.S. government to help resolve the problems in Northern Ireland.

So AIPAC isn't unique. It's just another group of Americans seeking to influence government policy.