After reading all these posts, most of which follow the lines of Israel is racist, Zionism wants to take over the world, Judaism inherently attract warranted persecution, the overuse of the anti-Semite accusation, Israel is the primary/only aggressor in the region (among all those tolerant, peace loving Arab countries, right?), all Jews are aligned with AIPAC--let me just say this, and I know in advance the bile that will be spewed against me: Israel is not America's expansionist proxy in the Middle East; you are all putting the cart before the horse. As is well known, major financial support has been and continues to be provided to Israel to defend itself. Knowing an overwhelming number of Jews and plenty of Israelis (how many of you Israel hater are intimately aquainted with either), most of you know nothing about Israel, Jews, the Jewish faith, or Middle East policies and history. Pre-9/11, America was all too happy for Israel to be the fulcrum of Arab hostility--no need to worry about America being attacked when Israel, with it's being situated right in the middle of the whole mess, was the target of all political and military flak. Hence the large military susidy of Israel's military (let us not leave out the ideological support the two countries share in that they are both democracies, but that is a topic for another discussion). Anyway, 9/11 changed everything for the United States: all of a sudden, Israel could not be relied upon to be the chief magnet for essentially all Western aggression (yes, yes, there were a number of US embassy bombings aside, but they were negligable compared to the attacks/attempted attacks against Israel. With America now vulnerable to attack originating from the fundamentalist Islamists in the Middle East, America's excursions into Afghanistan and Iraq were subsequenlt planned and executed. To sum up, Israel is not America's proxy, and the latter's interest in the formers continued existence was in large part due to the fact that attacks against the former diminished the threats to the latter. Until recently, the biggest stumbling block to preven attacks upon AMerica was geographical distance, but all that has changed in the past decade or so. An finally, it should be noted that the Great Satan and the Littel Satan comprise 99.9% of the world's Jewry. Let the angry refutations commence.

Are you saying that what American has supported Israel for the last however many decades just to make sure the Arabs had somebody nearby to attack instead of turning on us? I've heard some pretty ridiculous conspiracy nonsense in my time, but that one has got to be near the top.

...will you please provide citations for all of your, um, "claims."

...again. I don't believe in being dismissive, short-sighted and unwilling to examine facts in cases such as important as this. Let's look at what you've said here:

"Judaism inherently attract warranted persecution"
what you think we* think: DAMN STRAIGHT!
what we really think: No one deserves to be persecuted, but keep it up and I might smack ya in the pie hole. Not b/c you're (well, you haven't said it....) Jewish, but b/c you're foaming at the mouth with hatred against people who think differently. Isn't that the cultural attitude of extremists, like those who took down the trade center towers and use car bombs in Israel on a daily basis?

*"we"* refers to a non-specific group of people who don't hate Jews or Muslims (or anyone) based on religion alone. We enjoy examining all available facts and digging for those which are unavailable. We choose to proceed w/ as much rationality as possible in arguments and don't foam at the mouth like a rabid dog. We also enjoy cooking and great wines on special at our local wine shop.*

" Israel is the primary/only aggressor in the region"
Um, when did anyone say that? That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard people be accused of. I, and others, want to see Sharia law GONE...not b/c I'm intolerant of difference cultural values, but b/c Sharia law, by definition doesn't give people a CHOICE. If people want to live that way - by all means, please do. But when the alternative is murder via beat down...something has got to give.

"most of you know nothing about Israel, Jews, the Jewish faith"
You're somewhat correct on that one. But, I don't really care to learn about any religion in depth. I find it's a waste of time. Yup, I'm a gentile AND a heathen. Knowing about Judaism is irrelevant to the majority of the conversation, however, I do think it's important as far as fully understanding where everyone is coming from. You're not helping Judaism by representing it with your brutal, hate-filled vitriol.

"they are both democracies"
Do the Palestinians who have been removed from their homes have voting rights...?

I think the U.S is far from perfect. I think humans are generally good - but the nasty ones seems to be the ones in power...making life crappy for the maximum amount of people possible. True utilitarians. But when I disagree w/ U.S policies no one calls me anti-"something" b/c disagreement doesn't equal hatred. If it did, the divorce rate would drop to 0%...b/c no one would ever get married! Disagreement and questioning is a good thing - it helps us to develop ourselves, our ideas and our opinions. Don't take it presonally. Don't get all upset. It's a tough topic, I'll admit, but I'm enjoying the dialogue, not crying that you hate me b/c you disagree w/ what I say.

I started my post by calling it a primer; of course it's more nuanced than that, but I don't have the time of energy to spend the next month typing a post on Slate.com. Yes, I am Jewish, but I am a completely non-practicing agnostic. I am not racist in the slightest, unless you count disdain for fundametalist religious nutjobs racism. I'm not sure where you got that either explicitly or implicitly from anything I wrote. For Christ sake, I'm a fucking free-love peace-on-Earth hippie. My interest in Middle East politics is purely based on intellectual interest in order to keep abreast of current events, and I take a special interest in what is currently the world's biggest hot-spot for a social- and political-junkie such as myself. I'm not promoting any agenda nor offering any solutions. Feel free to disagree with me, but I presented my argument calmly. I didn't use italics, caps, bold-face, or and excessive amount of exclamation point. And you call me a rabid dog foaming at the mouth? (let me quote a bit from your post: "DAMN STRAIGHT!"; "That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard people be accused of."; "I don't really care to learn about any religion in depth. I find it's a waste of time."; etc., etc. And that's just THIS post. Where exactly is the vitriol and hatred? You're completely missing the point. I'm done with this thread.

Online arguing is tough and not satiating. I feel that you're missing my points - although I'm sure you'd disagree. The "foaming at the mouth" thing was in reference to the "flip out" fashion in which you approached other threads.

And the "damn straight" wasn't my reaction - thanks for taking it out of context, like many other things. I was trying to point out the insanity in how you've been reactionary. I see nothing wrong with italics. Forget about what your 3rd grade English teacher told you - italics are perfectly acceptable in many situations, we're not writing the next great American novel...trying to get one's point across in two paragraphs requires the aid of crafty devices such as italics.

Evidence is beneath him.

Where exactly is the vitriol and hatred? You're completely missing the point. I'm done with this thread.

Boo fucking hoo. It's easy for you to be calm. We're all paying in blood and treasure to carry Israel's water while it behaves like an abomination.

If you were calm, you might have found it easier to respond to posts that were vitriolic and devoid of good reasoning. Of course, it just may be that these folks are right, and that's what has them so pissed off when fools like you pop in with reams of bullshit that one could pick apart if they wanted to devote half of their day to it.

I know I said I was done with this thread, but here's one last word: you're absolutely right, online arguing is tough and unsatisfying. If you met me, you'd see I'm incredibly laid back and open-minded. I am not a rabid dog, a racist, or a "rah-rah Israel can do no wrong" type of person. They make plenty of stupid decisions, like their complete unwillingness to recognize Hamas, to sit down at the table with their enemies until they agree to every one of Israel's stipulations (an expectation to concede before "negotiations" begin), or the carpet bombing campaign of Beirut and southern Lebanon in response to the Hezbollah incursion into northern Israel, killing two soldiers and kidnapping seven more. Hezbollah got the war they wanted (the war was a stalemate, but Hezbollah achieved it's goal of becoming the de-facto state of Southern Lebanon), but Israel's response was heavy handed and cruel (the source of Hezbollah's "victory; and indeed, the won the political war, if not the military one); but Israel completely overreacted. That said, I believe in her right to exist. But I digress. You can't glean a person's personality, disposition, or even political leanings from a couple of generalized paragraphs where all you can do is respond to the previous person's generalized nuance-free post. To turn the tables for a moment, it's hard not to read italicizing, bold-faced, capilized, exclamation heavy typing as non-confrontational. Absent face-to-face discussion, real intellectual discourse is impossible. More specifically, the Slate forum is notoriously vicious. But at least it's not the Washington Post. I understand there are plenty of Israel hater's out there, and if you only watch what goes on there on CNN it's hard to get a foot hold on the context. The only was to understand Israel's existence, the Palestinian problem, etc. Is to go back and study, in depth, both the history of the Jews and the Muslims and Europe and the Middle East, etc., etc., from all points of view, going back centuries, and the fact of the matter is, most people don't have this context. And I'm not trying to say I do either, but I'm willing to bet I've got more than most. GEStelz, I don't know you and you don't know me, and forum discussions make it difficult to maintain a proper level of composure given the varying opinions (and, in many cases, undisguised hatred) flying in from all directions. And I'm guilty of some of that too. But what can you do. Oh, and when you say "reactionary", I assume you mean reacting to what was previously said. I am certainly not a political reactionary; I'm a progressive libertarian.

doodahman:

Ditto.

Oh, except for the part about being calm.

Hyperbole much? All Jews? What idiot would even make a comment that associate an entire religious group into a single mind? What do you think we never heard of Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn or the many people of Jewish background who criticize Israel and the pro-Israel lobby all the time? You're way off base with your comments that lack any shred of thought other than taking up the usual "Israel has to defend itself". Yeah occupying another people is integral to that I'm sure and setting up settlements where there is water even moreso. Why do they haggle during "peace talks" anyway? Can't share Jerusalem, still control Gaza's borders and offer little more than scraps to the Palestinians and then cry foul when something happens to Israelis (even as the death count is disproportionately Palestinians, yeah that's been an effective deterrent too). Give us a break. Israel is not our closest ally and it shouldn't be. They don't listen to us and they are imperialists and frankly I don't see the point of why America has to continue to drag its name into the mud for a country that was created in the midst of people who were already there.

"Boo fucking hoo. It's easy for you to be calm. We're all paying in blood and treasure to carry Israel's water while it behaves like an abomination."

Racist bastards like you need to be stripped of the privledges afford to you by the US. You shouldn't be allowed to drive, us hospitals, or anything else.

You deserved to be locked up in a jail and starved to death.

I invite you to try.

I'm far more generous. Paranoid traitors should be expelled.

Fine by me. Go ahead and kick yourself out.

Saying that Israel's lobby is involved in some conspiracy is paranoia.

The fact that you try and say that they are evil and worse than other lobbyiests that spend hundreds of times more money and influence far more makes you a traitor.

You should be shot as one.