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Rosenbaum identifies no "errors," makes many himself
by Larry2
+6/-2 Reply

Rosenbaum writes:

Forgive me if I forgo the argument over whether The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, the controversial new polemic from John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt, should be called anti-Semitic.

But then he goes on to argue just that, offering several arguments without offering refutations:

Set aside David Duke's enthusiastic endorsement of their thesis as vindication for his ravings.

A logical fallacy. Stalin and Churchill were both pleased by the fall of the Nazi regime -- does that equate them in moral terms? In any terms?

Set aside the fact that the book, in its account of the insidious influence of supporters of Israel, calls to mind the fantastical, string-pulling Jewish conspiracy for world domination one finds in that century-old fraud The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Here Rosenbaum attempts the old conflation -- that criticism of Israel is identical to criticism of "the Jews." Thus zionists co-opt the Jewish people, claiming to speak for them all, except those Jews who criticize Israel and thus must be "self hating Jews."

Even more amusing is that this argument means that those who detest Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld, or the rabid Christian Right, are thereby antisemitic! Because all of them are staunchly pro-Israel, and part of the lobby.

To me, the real problem is not ... the one-sidedness of its depiction of Israel and its supporters,

An interesting critique which I don't recall Rosenbaum making with respect to, say, The Case for Israel.

The new book suggests that the lobby for the Jewish state—unlike the lobby for, say, ethanol—is not just another successful interest group but somehow illegitimate because of its success, and that its influence on American policy has become so powerful and malign that no one dares challenge it (except, well, them, and a good number of Jews).

Perhaps because the supporters of ethanol are not putting the interests of a foreign nation ahead of the interests of the United States, with the result being the dispossession and occupation of millions of people. Ethanol supporters, as far as I know, do not propose that the US squander resources to pay for the predations of an oppressive power, causing thereby much harm of the US, much anger against it -- and who can truly blame the Muslim world for being angry about it?

They describe Israel as brutally oppressive (unlike, say, our heavily subsidized Arab allies such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia)

We do not subsidize Saudi Arabia. We subsidize Egypt so that it will not be at war with Israel, so payments to Egypt are essentially further payments to Israel. This (a pacified Egypt) is what freed Israel up to attack Lebanon in the early 1980s.

Eliot A. Cohen characterized the double standard of the Mearsheimer and Walt thesis in this fashion:

Cohen's "arguments" of a double standard are ridiculous. The USA does not subsidize Syria or Iran, so it's Cohen who is establishing a double standard. And the old canard about the menacing Arabs is, as any military man will tell you, ludicrous. Israel holds all the cards from a military perspective, and has for decades. It is Israel that has been the aggressor in every war from 1948, other than 1973, which was an attempt by Arab powers to regain the territory seized by them in 1967.

And considering the constant drumbeat of anti-Arab propaganda in America by Zionists in the media (see, for instance, Debbie Schlussel, who never found a tragedy she couldn't blame on a Muslim), why is it so shocking to Cohen that anti-semitism would arise in Arab countries? At least in the case of the Arabs, they have something to be enraged about -- constant attacks on their countries, and a brutal colonialism committed against Muslims.

so it's hard to imagine his being pleased with the gold star they pin on his attack on his fellow Jews.)

Ah, so they are marking people with gold stars? So much for Rosenbaum's protestations that he's not absurdly inflammatory. One gets the impression that Rosenbaum needs to read The Jewbird over again, as he sounds disturbingly like the avian character in that story. Rosenbaum does a disservice to the dead of the Holocaust by invoking them against everyone who forgets to pack the potato salad with his order.

They quote several American Jews talking about a rise in anti-Semitism here in America and then quote me saying, "There is likely to be a second Holocaust." Period. End quote.

Considering the falsehoods and propaganda that Rosenbaum perpetrates upon his reader to support his beloved other country, please excuse me for not crying my eyes out that he was ... misquoted! It is amusing when intelligent people completely fail to see the irony in their outrage.

Fairytales about the imperiled Jews of Israel are no more plausible that German-Americans being anxious that the evil Poland was about to overrun Germany in 1939.

Israel has squarely brought, and continues to bring, the hatred of its neighbors upon itself, due to its ghastly behavior. The Arab League has repeatedly promised to recognize Israel and normalize relations once Israel establishes viable nationhood for the Palestinians, but the Israelis invariably cold should this proposal -- any why shouldn't they? They want to continue to steal the Palestinians' land, and they greatly benefit from the emnity of the Arabs, as Rosenbaum's transparent propaganda makes clear.

I had understood that Rosenbaum was a praised author, but I'll never read one of his books now. This brand of Zionism is a poisonous fascism (recall that Ariel Sharon referred to himself as a "judeo-Nazi") which taints everything the perpetrator does.

Re: Rosenbaum identifies no "errors," makes many himself
by tg12

My first point would be to suggest that the previous poster needs to review his writings before posting, because the post sounds extremely emotional to me. There are some rational arguments, but they are blended with some that I find less than fully rational. I get that this is an emotional issue, but if you're trying to be convincing it's best to be consistent and make sense.

Moreover, a misquote or misuse of a quote is an error. The one he specifically points out is fully relevant and important to how people interpret both Mearsheimer and Walt's points as well as Rosenbaum's own.


Even more amusing is that this argument means that those who detest Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld, or the rabid Christian Right, are thereby antisemitic! Because all of them are staunchly pro-Israel, and part of the lobby.

Rosenbaum doesn't say this, nor does he imply it. Though he does not make it explicit, my reading of his article leads me to believe he would differentiate criticisms of Israel and the Israel lobby from certain one-sided claims that he has found in this book. Perhaps I am projecting, but I don't see anything in what Rosenbaum wrote to suggest he detests any and all criticism of Israel. I may well find things to disagree with Rosenbaum on (I get the feeling there would be many), but I didn't see anything outrageous here. I'll agree some remarks like the one about the gold star were unnecessary, but that's hardly something to whine about.

Israel has squarely brought, and continues to bring, the hatred of its neighbors upon itself, due to its ghastly behavior.

Israel has made mistakes, and continues to do so. However, Israel has done much good and strives towards peace and reconciliation. Of course Israel is not a monolith, so there are many within Israel that I believe your comments do apply to. Really though, it comes back to the question of a double standard. Is Israel the only country to commit the oppression you speak of? The US has certainly made some serious errors of a similar sort, and France has issues of its own with its own (Arabs). Frankly it's silly to rag on Israel in this way. Criticism is appropriate, over-generalizations, double standards, and hatred are not.

I had understood that Rosenbaum was a praised author, but I'll never read one of his books now. This brand of Zionism is a poisonous fascism (recall that Ariel Sharon referred to himself as a "judeo-Nazi") which taints everything the perpetrator does.

Wow, anyone who believes this, I know of a great deal on a bridge...

Re: Rosenbaum identifies no "errors," makes many himself
by conan776

Managing to mention David Duke by the second paragraph is absurd. I expect this from the pro-Israel dominated wikipedia, but I expect some sort of editorial standards from Slate, even in opinion pieces.

I honestly thought I was reading a "Low Concept" parody until I saw it went on for three pages.

If I want to get spewed with unthinking and unoriginal propaganda I'll try a message board. I expect better here. Letting Ron Rosenbaum make a fool out of himself is just shameless.

"mistakes"
by faustus

You seem pretty even-handed and articulate, but it never fails to astonish me that intentional atrocities suddenly become "mistakes" when commited by the US or Israel. Was it a "mistake" when Israel bombed the USS Liberty in 1967, in unmarked aircraft, with the explicit intention of blaming this massacre of 34 US servicemen on Egypt in order to draw us into their war? By this logic, 9-11, or at least the official story thereof, was "just a mistake." It reminds me of the scene in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" when Lancelot rushes into the wedding scene and murders the majority of the wedding party, only to have the bride's father admonish the survivors "Let's not argue and bicker over who killed who." Or Rumsfeld's "mistakes were made." Yeah, tell that to the 3000+ mothers of the soldiers fallen in Iraq, or those survivors with missing arms and legs, or cancers growing due to poison from depleted uranium. Tell it to the Iraqis themselves--if you can still find one alive.

While some of your arguments are valid and well written, I don't think the dismissing use of "mistakes" is one of them.

Re: Rosenbaum identifies no "errors," makes many himself
by Larry2

My first point would be to suggest that the previous poster needs to review his writings before posting, because the post sounds extremely emotional to me. There are some rational arguments, but they are blended with some that I find less than fully rational. I get that this is an emotional issue, but if you're trying to be convincing it's best to be consistent and make sense.

A personal attack right out of the gate, with no specifics given, of course. Please point out which of my arguments were "overemotional" and "don't make sense," and I'll clarify for you.

Moreover, a misquote or misuse of a quote is an error. The one he specifically points out is fully relevant and important to how people interpret both Mearsheimer and Walt's points as well as Rosenbaum's own.

As Rosenbaum himself makes clear, this article is about a lot more than the misquote. And of course, the authors agreed to change it in future publications, pretty strongly suggesting that it was a simple error.

On the other hand, for instance, Daniel Pipes goes around claiming that Noam Chomsky has called for the destruction of Israel. That's a blatant lie, it's been pointed out to him, and he refuses to recant on it. Tell me, how important is that misquote in how people should interpret the arguments of zionists? Seems pretty "emblematic" to me of the falsehoods peddled in the US by zionist propagandists.

Rosenbaum doesn't say this, nor does he imply it.

Yes, he does. He says:

Set aside the fact that the book, in its account of the insidious influence of supporters of Israel, calls to mind the fantastical, string-pulling Jewish conspiracy for world domination one finds in that century-old fraud The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

The book does not criticize Jews -- it criticizes Zionists who lobby in favor of Israel in the US. That explicitly leaves out Jews who do not support Israel, and explicitly includes non-Jews who do support Israel. That second group includes Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and rightwing Christian Fundamentalists.

Yes Rosenbaum claims that the book calls to mind the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, bending a book which is about Israel into a book about Judaism. This makes perfectly apt my comment that it's ridiculous to call the book anti-semitic, unless you consider it to be anti-semitic to be opposed to Cheney, Rumsfeld and the Christian Right.

Israel has made mistakes, and continues to do so. However, Israel has done much good and strives towards peace and reconciliation.

Name one good thing Israel has done for the international community. Israel has been and continues to be the major troublemaker in the region, both for the Arabs it has enslaved and its Arab neighbors. (This has the added detriment of giving these Arab states, many of them brutal dictatorships, an external threat to distract the masses with.) Israel secretly developed atomic weapons on the sly and continues to deny that it even has large stockpiles of them. Israel launches air raids against its neighbors at its whim. Israel armed apartheid South Africa with atomic weapons. Israel attacked a US ship, the USS Liberty, killing and injuring many of the crewmen, because the Liberty may have picked up news that Israel was about to launch its 1967 war on its neighbors. That's just a taste of what Israel does, what Israel is. So, I'd be very interested to know what good it's done. I could use some good news on the Middle East.

Is Israel the only country to commit the oppression you speak of? The US has certainly made some serious errors of a similar sort, and France has issues of its own with its own (Arabs). Frankly it's silly to rag on Israel in this way. Criticism is appropriate, over-generalizations, double standards, and hatred are not.

You are changing the subject, and it doesn't suprise me. Let's get back to the subject at hand: How many of those other countries that you speak of have been fully endorsed, diplomatically and militarily supported, and underwritten for decades by the United States, with disastrous public relations consequences? How many of them receive slavish praise from the congress and president?

I'll tell you what -- when we give Communist North Korea 5 billion dollars a year in aid, weapons and loan guarantees, then I'll criticize our relationship with North Korea every bit as much as I criticize our relationship with Israel. Fair enough?

Right now we are talking about Israel, the country that gets half of all US foreign aid even though it's not a poor country (an appalling outrage all by itself), that gets huge loan guarantees from the US, and that the US stands behind militarily and diplomatically 100%, no matter how awful Israel's behavior is. Comprende?

Wow, anyone who believes this, I know of a great deal on a bridge...

What are you referring to, the reference to Sharon as a Judeo-Nazi? (You should be clearer.) If so, you might want to start saving for that bridge, because ....

<link>

Re: Rosenbaum identifies no "errors," makes many himself
by San

"A logical fallacy. Stalin and Churchill were both pleased by the fall of the Nazi regime -- does that equate them in moral terms? In any terms?"

So you are equating the writing of this book with the fall of the Nazi regime?

Sorry, but you just proved that you aren't qualified to write a post.

Re: Rosenbaum identifies no "errors," makes many himself
by gurbach
Check out Freedom House ranking of the free states in the Middle East - Israel is the only free country both politically and Culturally. Perhaps Freedom House is a Zionist organization or under the influence of AIPAC. Is Freedom a good thing? . Your runt is baseless.
Re: Rosenbaum identifies no "errors," makes many himself
by nbahn

gurbach:
Check out Freedom House ranking of the free states in the Middle East - Israel is the only free country both politically and Culturally. Perhaps Freedom House is a Zionist organization or under the influence of AIPAC. Is Freedom a good thing? . Your runt is baseless.

Yet Israel continues to flout the standards of human decency. e.g.:

  • Nearly one-half of all Jewish Israelis want to deport Arab Muslim Israelis from Israel merely because of their religion.
  • Israel continually denies the Palestinians of the West Bank meaningful freedom of movement.
  • The Gaza Strip currently constitutes the world's largest open-air prison.

Re: Rosenbaum identifies no "errors," makes many himself
by bsharporflat

Gaza strip currently constitutes the world's largest open air prison? I need that explained.

What could be more free than Gaza? It is run by Hamas the duly elected leadership of the Palestinian people. Israel doesn't do anything in Gaza to restrict their freedoms except try to stop rocket launchings into Israeli territory. Who are the jailers? Israel for not having open borders? Egypt for not having open borders? The world for not providing a fleet of yachts so Gaza people can all sail the Mediterranean when they want?

Please explain.

Re: Rosenbaum identifies no "errors," makes many himself
by nbahn

That's like saying that the Jewish Ghettos in Nazi Germany were free.....

Read the following:

Politics Unmercifully Trespass Humanitarian Borders in Gaza

Gaza Prison

Gaza Strip

Re: Rosenbaum identifies no "errors," makes many himself
by bsharporflat
ho hum. If you want to have a nation you've got to make some sacrifices. Can't see that the Palestinians are willing to sacrifice anything but Israeli lives and the lives of their political enemies. Maybe when that stops, their process of building a nation can start. For now they keep waiting for someone else to do it for them. Doesn't work that way.
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