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If you knew nothing of Rand's personal life...
by BritBailey
+1 Reply

...but read her books, it wouldn't be hard to imagine that she was exactly the kind of person described in this article. She was a shallow thinker and obviously a lunatic, which pretty well describes the rightwing Screamers who embrace her batshit ideology today.

I keep getting Rand Institute mailings in my box at school, too. These people are a borderline cult on par with L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology.

Anybody who wants a novelist's perspective on totalitarianism should skip Rand's shitty books and stick with Orwell.

Re: If you knew nothing of Rand's personal life...
by Ohka

Well, I would agree with you that her writing style never appealed to me but to say that she was a shallow thinker and a lunatic is taking it a bit far. I realize that she represents a point of view you disagree with but to put off like she never had anything of value to say is just silly. She is being trashed here for two reasons: 1 that she represents a republican/libertarian point of view 2. That her message is still a strong one that continues to influence the world today.

While I don’t agree with everything she has to say, she represented a secular type of republicanism and as a republican I hope that is the direction the party will head toward in the future.

What is so "bat shit" about it anyway?

Re: If you knew nothing of Rand's personal life...
by BritBailey

Objectivism rests on the notion that people can be divided from their emotions; that rationality and emotionalism run on two different planes, and in order for a (supposedly "free") society to work, governments must operate on the rational plane and exclude emotionalism from policy as far as is possible. This is why the Objectivist believes that "that which is necessary cannot be evil."

It's a silly, shallow summation of the human psyche. In fact, some of Rand's most loyal supporters are some of the most highly emotional wackos out there. Some of them hang out on the Fray quite often.

For Ayn Rand, there is no function for empathy or compassion in government. It is simply not tenable. It's a retarded and yes, very shallow conception of society and people as a whole.

Re: If you knew nothing of Rand's personal life...
by Ohka

I have often found in my life that the decision made on emotional grounds ends up being the wrong decision.

I don't think it is all that silly. For example, I whole heartily agree with "that which is necessary cannot be evil." I don't believe in evil anyway but if something is necessary than it must be good by definition. Necessary implies that the system does not work in its absence, therefore it must be good.

Re: If you knew nothing of Rand's personal life...
by muskratboy

shallow thinker indeed... i can sum up the ENTIRETY of "atlas shrugged" ... all 1000 pages... in 3 words:

"communism is bad."

that's all there is. seriously.

simplistic and repetitive is EXACTLY what rand is.

Re: If you knew nothing of Rand's personal life...
by BritBailey
Ohka:

I have often found in my life that the decision made on emotional grounds ends up being the wrong decision.

I don't think it is all that silly. For example, I whole heartily agree with "that which is necessary cannot be evil." I don't believe in evil anyway but if something is necessary than it must be good by definition. Necessary implies that the system does not work in its absence, therefore it must be good.

Yeah, that's all well and good, but then you run into the problem of having to define "necessary." Who gets to decide what is necessary and what isn't? According to Rand, it certainly shouldn't be the People.

Re: If you knew nothing of Rand's personal life...
by Ohka
Nobody decides what is necessary. Something is necessary by definition. Oxygen is necessary for oxidative phosphorylation, lift is necessary for flight etc. Either something is necessary or it isn't, it doesn't matter what anybody decides.
Re: If you knew nothing of Rand's personal life...
by Ohka

Sounds pretty deep to me.

How many books did I read in college that were "capitalism is bad"? Lots.

Most of general ed in college can be summed up by "capitalism is bad".

Re: If you knew nothing of Rand's personal life...
by Bondsman
muskratboy:

shallow thinker indeed... i can sum up the ENTIRETY of "atlas shrugged" ... all 1000 pages... in 3 words:

"communism is bad."

that's all there is. seriously.

simplistic and repetitive is EXACTLY what rand is.

Communism, as practiced in the Soviet Union, WAS bad. I guess you're saying you agree with Rand and liked her book?

Re: If you knew nothing of Rand's personal life...
by BritBailey

Ohka:
Nobody decides what is necessary. Something is necessary by definition. Oxygen is necessary for oxidative phosphorylation, lift is necessary for flight etc. Either something is necessary or it isn't, it doesn't matter what anybody decides.

Which is why I can't be a conservative; you guys think all this is easy. It isn't. Iraq was not a necessary war, for example.

necessary for what?
by Ohka
I never said that it is easy. We can argue about whether Iraq was necessary or not (first we have to agree on what the the war is necessary for) but regardless of how we feel about it, it is either necessary or it is not.
Re: necessary for what?
by BritBailey

Ohka:
I never said that it is easy. We can argue about whether Iraq was necessary or not (first we have to agree on what the the war is necessary for) but regardless of how we feel about it, it is either necessary or it is not.

Yeah, but how can you dismiss the debate? It's not inconsequential. For Rand, and really most libertarians, these questions are cut-and-dried. They never figure in the political problem; every initiative has to have the consent of the governed, or at least a majority of the governed. This is why Rand despised democracy, and in fact many libertarians despise democracy. They hate it, because they know no one person can run the show, which they need in order to take their ideas of necessity and ram them down everybody's throats.

There's a libertarian poster around here, he goes by many names; one of them is Island Muffin. This guy once argued that a dictator is better than a democracy as long as the dictator protects free market principles. In his view, Augusto Pinochet was a blessing for Chile. It makes perfect sense for a libertarian to say such a thing.

It makes no sense
by Ohka

for a libertarian to say such a thing. Muffin is ridiculous.

Well we are getting of track here, but okay. Truly I am not a libertarian nor a conservative. I agree with some libertarian ideas but not all. Although I don't see how any true libertarian would argue for a dictator, it doesn't make sense because the entire platform of libertarianism is based on individual freedom.

The real issue was if something necessary can be evil. I say no. We can still argue over what is necessary but if it is in fact necessary then it must be good.

BTW.

Rand didn't hate democracy, she hated unlimited majority rule democracy. The reason she did not like this is that it would allow the majority to be just as ruthless and unjust as a dictator. The classic example is the "death of Socrates" example where he is put to death because the majority doesn't like what he has to say. This is why the USA is not a true unlimited majority rule democracy. Anyone who really wants the unlimited majority style of democracy wants it because they want to abuse it (which is probably why "democracy NOW! is called democracy NOW!). I agree with Rand on this one, and you have misstated her argument.

Re: It makes no sense
by BritBailey
Ohka:

for a libertarian to say such a thing. Muffin is ridiculous.

Well we are getting of track here, but okay. Truly I am not a libertarian nor a conservative. I agree with some libertarian ideas but not all. Although I don't see how any true libertarian would argue for a dictator, it doesn't make sense because the entire platform of libertarianism is based on individual freedom.

The real issue was if something necessary can be evil. I say no. We can still argue over what is necessary but if it is in fact necessary then it must be good.

BTW.

Rand didn't hate democracy, she hated unlimited majority rule democracy. The reason she did not like this is that it would allow the majority to be just as ruthless and unjust as a dictator. The classic example is the "death of Socrates" example where he is put to death because the majority doesn't like what he has to say. This is why the USA is not a true unlimited majority rule democracy. Anyone who really wants the unlimited majority style of democracy wants it because they want to abuse it (which is probably why "democracy NOW! is called democracy NOW!). I agree with Rand on this one, and you have misstated her argument.

No, in fact she despised democracy. But let me return to this notion of dictatorship and libertarianism

No society that guarantees the rights of individuals will ever sustain a libertarian form of free market capitalism. Every country built on basic democratic principles gravitates toward the Left over the course of its history. Conservatism, as the American Right has defined it, is an unsustainable political philosophy. In fact I would go as far as to say that it's not even really a well-defined political philsophy, because it always changes. The boundaries get moved, and conservatives are dragged along. This is why the Screamers, the Tea Party folks--they're nuts. Glenn Beck says health care reform will threaten Medicare; do you see the irony in that? Thirty years ago, conservatives declared Medicare a great evil. About ten years ago, Republicans tried to gut the program to the point of eradicating it. Today, they're declaring it a Right that should not be taken away.

This is how it goes in any society By the People and For the People. Eventually, the People will get what they want, because they see government as working for them--which it does. Did you notice how many Wall Street firms went begging for government bailouts? Did you notice how many banks had their hand out? These are the poster children for free market capitalism, but when things go bad, everybody needs a hand, and the only place to go for help is the government.

The only way a libertarian government could ever sustain itself as such is for politicians to tell the beggers to screw off. But this won't happen, because we elect the politicians. They aren't going to bite the hand that puts them in office. The only way to keep the hounds at bay is for a strong central government to force them away. If it doesn't, everybody descends on the Treasury like jackals on a carcass as soon as the economy goes awry.

Rand understood this, as do many other libertarians. Democracy will always drift toward a more liberal vision. It has to; it can't help itself. In fact any country headed by a representative government of any kind will do exactly that, even a democratic republic like our own.

Re: necessary for what?
by Domini

Ohka:
I never said that it is easy. We can argue about whether Iraq was necessary or not (first we have to agree on what the the war is necessary for) but regardless of how we feel about it, it is either necessary or it is not.

It can be necessary for some but not others, i.e. partially necessary. The context is necessary for nation, not just individua;. That's the problem. Individual versus group must be balanced, and Rand does not balance it. In communities run on Randian terms (think ghettos and inner cities), nothing productive is created, because producers need security and other institutions based on trust and group action. Individuals acting only for themselves easily destroy far more than they create. Been there. Seen that. Her rugged individual is a thug or a gangbanger at it's most pure expression. How do they help society again?

Rand never produced anything but writing, so she really doesn't understand what the process means. Her writings and philosophy is not Republican or libertarian, because both see a role for government to protect property and freedom of action. She is an anarchist in her most pure state.

It's not the left who should hate her. The Right should hate her entirely because she removes the freedom of action for all that libertarians and true conservatives value. She wants freedom of action for a few, exactly like the Communists. She's as stalinist as Stalin himself, complete with a cult of personality.

True individuality means that individual rights must be balanced to have the greatest freedom for all. Rans never understood that. And her writing sucked.

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