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Our Country owes it’s Independence to Libs
by Lobato1c
+1/-1 Reply

The Con Religious Zealots of the day then known as Tories fought for the King whom was designated by the grace of God & from whom these Cons derived their privileges by right of birth.

To preserve their birthrights, the Cons "collaborated" with the English eagerly shouting, "May God Save the King".

The present Cons, modern day descendents of those Religious Zealot Tories have now "Rewritten history" & would have us believe our founding Fathers, the Thomas Jefferson’s, Benjamin Franklin’s et al. were "Conservative Pious Religious Zealots like there ilk."

In Our Constitution, our Founding Fathers were very specific in the Separation of Church & State when they made our Constitution.

Not once did they mention God or Church in the entire Constitution.

Better yet, Thomas Jefferson had nothing but contempt for organized Religion

Thomas Jefferson:

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short

Jefferson again:

Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

More Jefferson:

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

Jefferson's word for the Bible?

Dunghill.

.

Best Regards

Lobato1

Re: Our Country owes it’s Independence to Libs
by Seasoldier

Is that the asshole that had sex with a slave girl and then lied about it? Yeah, he sure was thinking of his black brother wasn't he?

People who summarily dismiss scriptures without first reading them are people who have no compass--They tend to take the broad and spacious roads everywhere.

Seasoldier/It especially gives me great pleasure in seeing them come around to God--I saw many atheists on the battlefields suddenly turn religious.

With All Due Respect To Mr. Jefferson,
by Zam-Zam

.....I believe this country owes its independence more to the men and women in uniform than to any politician, or group of politicians.

I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said "War Is Not The Answer". I thought to myself, it really depends on what the question is........

Re: With All Due Respect To Mr. Jefferson,
by Arkady

Men and women in uniform dutifully marched off to kill and to die.... on both sides of the Revolution. Historically, there's nothing more ordinary than that. Whether the nation's goals are liberation or conquest, pluralistic democracy or totalitarianism, and whether the nation is led by great men or goons like Stalin and Hitler, there never seems to be much difficulty in rounding up thousands or even millions of soldiers willing to practice violence for the State. Their heroism or villany is mostly an accident of which side they happened to be born on. So, I'd say that attributing the country's independence to those in uniform only makes as much sense as attributing its former subservience, and the subsequent threats to its independence, to those in uniform. There are soldiers on both sides of every conflict, so I don't see any moral elevation in soldiers as a group. What's a lot rarer, though, are a group of high-minded politicians. Like their evil peers, high-minded politicians seldom have trouble rounding up soldiers to kill and die for their vision, but the difference is the nature of that vision, which can, occassionally, make the sacrifices worth it.

As for your closer, here's the question: "What state of affairs proves to be a counter-productive waste of human life and human effort, the vast majority of the time?" War is the answer.

Re: With All Due Respect To Mr. Jefferson,
by Zam-Zam

How did America gain its independence?

War.

How did the end of slavery come about?

War.

What stopped the spread of fascism across Europe?

War.

I'm not advocating war as an answer to all our problems, but there are worse scenarios. If there is no will to fight, tyranny will prevail every time.

You seem to have a low opinion of those who preserve your freedom.

Re: With All Due Respect To Mr. Jefferson,
by shep

Arkady's point, Zammie, is that ALL NATIONS owe their existance to their soldiery... and that would include the most vicious nations on Earth.

I believe Arkady is saying that our current fashion in this country to genuflect always, everywhere, and every time to our troops is a bit like the more "devout" of the Shi'a leadership, who begin and end every official pronouncement with "In the name of G-d, the compassionate, the merciful." Just window dressing.. and mostly bogus.

Of course, the soldiery deserves our gratitude.. but I think they only merit our real admiration for individual acts o nobility or gallantry.. most of which are performed in the heat of the moment out of loyalty to their comrades to the left and the right of them on the battlefield.

And, yes, Zammy.. I DO know whereof I speak.

Jackshep

A Bit More On Jefferson......
by Zam-Zam

.....Although Jefferson had philisophical differences with the Christian Bible, he was quite impressed by Jesus Christ, and spent a great deal of time and effort contemplating His message.....

Thomas Jefferson and his BibleThe 'Jefferson Bible' was Thomas Jefferson's attempt to extract an authentic Jesus from the Gospel accounts.

by Marilyn Mellowes

The White House, Washington, D.C. 1804.

Thomas Jefferson was frustrated. It was not the burdens of office that bothered him. It was his Bible.

Jefferson was convinced that the authentic words of Jesus written in the New Testament had been contaminated. Early Christians, overly eager to make their religion appealing to the pagans, had obscured the words of Jesus with the philosophy of the ancient Greeks and the teachings of Plato. These "Platonists" had thoroughly muddled Jesus' original message. Jefferson assured his friend and rival, John Adams, that the authentic words of Jesus were still there. The task, as he put it, was one of

abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separate from that as the diamond from the dung hill.

With the confidence and optimistic energy characteristic of the Enlightenment, Jefferson proceeded to dig out the diamonds. Candles burning late at night, his quill pen scratching "too hastily" as he later admitted, Jefferson composed a short monograph titled The Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth. The subtitle explains that the work is "extracted from the account of his life and the doctrines as given by Matthew, Mark, Luke & John." In it, Jefferson presented what he understood was the true message of Jesus.

Jefferson set aside his New Testament research, returning to it again in the summer of 1820. This time, he completed a more ambitious work, The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted Textually from the Gospels in Greek, Latin, French and English. The text of the New Testament appears in four parallel columns in four languages. Jefferson omitted the words that he thought were inauthentic and retained those he believed were original. The resulting work is commonly known as the "Jefferson Bible."

Who was the Jesus that Jefferson found? He was not the familiar figure of the New Testament. In Jefferson's Bible, there is no account of the beginning and the end of the Gospel story. There is no story of the annunciation, the virgin birth or the appearance of the angels to the shepherds. The resurrection is not even mentioned.

Jefferson discovered a Jesus who was a great Teacher of Common Sense. His message was the morality of absolute love and service. Its authenticity was not dependent upon the dogma of the Trinity or even the claim that Jesus was uniquely inspired by God. Jefferson saw Jesus as

a man, of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, (and an) enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions of divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition by being gibbeted according to the Roman law.

In short, Mr. Jefferson's Jesus, modeled on the ideals of the Enlightenment thinkers of his day, bore a striking resemblance to Jefferson himself.

<link>

Re: A Bit More On Jefferson......
by shep

I too like and respect the Jefferson Bible. And Jefferson's Jesus is very much like my own Yeshuah bar Yusef.

And, like Jefferson, I also honour Siddhartha Gautama and Muhammad... and Rabbi Hillel.

Re: A Bit More On Jefferson......
by JimminyII
Mohammad created a CULT! He was nothing but a murderer.
Re: A Bit More On Jefferson......
by JimminyII
If the founding Fathers had been liberals we would still be part of England!!!!!
Re: A Bit More On Jefferson......
by J.MADISON
JimminyII:
If the founding Fathers had been liberals we would still be part of England!!!!!
More typical history revisionism by an ingnorant RIGHT WINGNUT! HISTORY REVISIONISM,THE FAVORITE TOOL OF THE RIGHTWINGNUT.
Re: A Bit More On Jefferson......
by shep
Ach, Jaimie Madison, but what would ye be afther expectin' from a Cricket like Jimminy? He ha'e na brains.. nobbut a wee ganglion or twa!!
Re: With All Due Respect To Mr. Jefferson,
by Arkady

What I'm trying to call attention to is that there are soldiers on both sides of every war, and that the war of liberation, viewed from one direction, is a war of oppression when viewed from the other. For example, the reason it was such a bloody ordeal to end slavery in this country was that there were countless brave young men willing to line up to kill and die on behalf of the Confederacy, in its attempts to preserve the right of white people to own black people. Many other countries had slavery, but in most cases it was resolved fairly peacefully, because there weren't enough people willing to kill and die on behalf of those who wished to preserve it.

>If there is no will to fight, tyranny will prevail every time.

Again, remember there are two sides to that story, every single time. It is the will to fight ON BEHALF OF TYRANTS that is the problem in the first place. If there were no will to fight, tyranny could NEVER prevail. It is only the will to fight on one side that makes the will to fight on the other side necessary.

>You seem to have a low opinion of those who preserve your freedom.

Absolutely not. I'm a huge fan of the ACLU. I just don't picture soldiers as inherently a force for preserving my freedom. They're a force for imposing the political will of others. In some cases, that means taking away freedom. In other cases, it means resisting those who would take freedom away.

I have nothing but respect for those who would die for a worthy cause, but history suggests that the greatest share of soldiers are people who, if they fight for a worthy cause, do so by accident of circumstance, not deep moral reasoning. The soldiering mindset doesn't vary hugely from one country to the next, one era to the next, because soldiers are not, for the most part, recruited by the justice of their cause. Just watch a military recruitment ad. Seldom do they focus on the rights or wrongs of a particular conflict into which the soldiers will be thrown. Instead, they focus on the manliness of soldiering, and the generic prejudice in favor of one's own nation... whatever nation that happens to be. The specific cause is almost beside the point. The military ethos, itself, is the attraction.

I'd love to live in a world where evil men find it very hard to create armies, because most soldiers are only willing to kill and die when the cause is truly just. But that's not the world we live in. Human nature is such that even for terrible causes, vast armies can be created, full of brave young men willing to give up their lives and to take the lives of others, for the nation.... whatever nation it happens to be. That courage was amply evident in the Soviet Union and in Nazi Germany. One of the bravest acts of recent warfare was the willingness of the 9/11 hijackers to choose certain death on behalf of a weak force attacking the strongest nation in history.

Those things had nothing to do with preserving freedom. They were driven by primal brain structures that turn people of a certain age into easy tools of violence for group leaders -- the same impulse that drives bloodshed between neighoring troops of chimpanzees, or gang wars in Compton, or petty tribal raids in the jungles of Borneo, or the land grabs of the colonial age. When the group leaders have noble goals, as has sometimes been the case in American history, the outcome can be good. But for every time violence is needed to acheive some worthy goal, remember that there are equally brave young men being used as tools of violence in the opposite direction.

That's why I value those who fight for what's right --peacefully if at all possible-- rather than ascribing some special virtue to soldiering. And it's why I focus on the political, intellectual, and moral leadership that's at work, rather than the omnipresent military mindset that makes a substantial portion of EVERY population willing tools of destruction. That mindset is commonplace in every culture at every time, and can just as easily be put to use for ill as for good, so there's nothing special about it.

Right now there's some young boy playing ball out in the heartland somewhere, whose brain is hard-wired to want to be part of an army when he grows up. Whether that ultimately makes him a tool for liberation or conquest, good or evil, nation-building or gang warfare, has little to do with how brave and selfless he's willing to be, and everything to do with how wise and moral the leadership is of the group he falls in with. Of course, there are exceptions -- people guided by moral principles, rather than reflexive group loyalties and machismo. These are the kind of people who, in a nation gripped by war fever, push the other way -- like the White Rose in WWII Germany. But looking at the amassed armies of history, balanced against the tiny handful of each culture willing to take moral stands against national war efforts, I don't think the evidence supports a notion that most soldiers are driven to violence by moral considerations. In fact, I'd wager that human nature is such that for every American soldier who'd be resisting the war effort if it were less just, there are a hundred of his comrades for whom the justice or injustice of the cause is a non-issue.... people who, if they were in a different time and place, would be just as proud to kill and die for the Fuehrer and the Vaterland or for Stalin and the Motherland.

war war war
by americaislost

Here is a short list of your wars and the consequences. America talks democracy but then supports friendly puppet dictators; and right winged nuts..

Chronological list of US murder toll: [under construction]

The murder toll has been achieved by either direct violence (e.g. the firebombing and nuking of Japan or the firebombing of Dresden) or indirect/proxy “low intensity conflict” (e.g. Rwanda in the is or Nicaragua in the 80s). (I have not here accounted for the deaths attributable to SAP.) Some extremely conservative estimates—

Native Americans (1776-2002): 4M

West Africans (1776-1865): 4M

Philippines (1898-1904): 600K

Germany (1945): 200K

Japan (1945): 900K

China (1945-60): 200K

Greece (1947-49): 100K

Korea (1951-53): 2M

Guatemala (1954-2002): 300K

Vietnam (1960-75): 2M

Laos (1965-73): 500K

Cambodia (1969-75): 1M

Indonesia (1965): 500K

Colombia (1966-2002): 500K

Oman (1970): 10K

Bangladesh (1971): 2M

Uganda (1971-1979): 200K

Chile (1973-1990): 20K

East Timor (1975): 200K

Angola (1975-2002): 1.5M

Argentina (1976-1979): 30K

Afghanistan (1978-2002): 1M

El Salvador (1980-95): 100K

Nicaragua (1980-90): 100K

Mozambique (1981-1988): 1M

Turkey (1984-2002): 50K

Rwanda (1990-1996): 1M

Iraq (1991-2002): 1M

Somalia (1991-1994): 300K

Yugoslavia (1991-2002): 300K

Liberia (1992-2002): 150K

Burundi (1993-1999): 200K

Sudan (1998): 100K

Congo (1998-2002): 3M

here is the complete list.

<link>

Re: Our Country owes it’s Independence to Libs
by Phoen-X

Well said my friend!

Dave

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