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Governing is hard
by DaveyNC
-1 Reply
At the root of what President Obama, Pelosi, Reid et al, are saying is that they know better how to manage this massive slice of the economy than a properly functioning free market does. By fiat, Obama says that he will eliminate a couple hundred million dollars of waste and fraud, when there is a) nothing stopping him from doing so now and b) no indication that it can even be done. By fiat, Obama says that he will eliminate pre-existing conditions and raise or remove the caps on benefits, when such moves require the insurance providers to RAISE PREMIUMS to cover expected greater liabilities somewhere down the road. The author then says that "The logical solution is to revert to a "robust" public option that would align doctor and hospital payments with Medicare...", ignoring the fact that Medicare payments do not eliminate costs, they merely displace the costs onto the health care provider. Medicare payments often do not cover costs and so the provider must bear the added burden without proper compensation for their work. They have to, in effect, give it away. Fiat governance at work again. By fiat, Obama says that it won't add to the deficit and Pelosi and friends dutifully set about concocting some scheme to show that, knowing all the while that it is against basic mathematics to do so. One cannot add millions of participants to a program without incurring additional costs. And here we are back again back up over the $1 trillion mark for program costs, a number that will only go up if these programs are implemented. Quit trying to tear down and completely redesign a system that on the whole, works well. I am an advocate of the reforms that John Mackey of Whole Foods put forth, and uses successfully. You know, something that has been proven to work, within the existing structure, is worth a good, hard look at, isn't it? And by the way, take a look at all the new taxes that we will be paying to fund this nightmare: Employer Mandate Excise Tax (Page 275): If an employer does not pay 72.5 percent of a single employee’s health premium (65 percent of a family employee), the employer must pay an excise tax equal to 8 percent of average wages. Small employers (measured by payroll size) have smaller payroll tax rates of 0 percent (<$500,000), 2 percent ($500,000-$585,000), 4 percent ($585,000-$670,000), and 6 percent ($670,000-$750,000). Individual Mandate Surtax (Page 296): If an individual fails to obtain qualifying coverage, he must pay an income surtax equal to the lesser of 2.5 percent of modified adjusted gross income (MAGI) or the average premium. MAGI adds back in the foreign earned income exclusion and municipal bond interest. Medicine Cabinet Tax (Page 324) Cap on FSAs (Page 325) Increased Additional Tax on Non-Qualified HSA Distributions (Page 326) Denial of Tax Deduction for Employer Health Plans Coordinating with Medicare Part D (Page 327) Surtax on Individuals and Small Businesses (Page 336) Excise Tax on Medical Devices (Page 339)(Yeah, that'll make those wheelchairs cheaper!) Corporate 1099-MISC Information Reporting (Page 344) Delay in Worldwide Allocation of Interest (Page 345) Limitation on Tax Treaty Benefits for Certain Payments (Page 346) Codification of the “Economic Substance Doctrine” (Page 349) Application of “More Likely Than Not” Rule (Page 357) Source: <link>
Re: Governing is hard
by DaveyNC
And why did the comment function eliminate all my spacing? Sorry 'bout that.
Davy, see 1/1/09 for what the 'free market' does.
by intersurfa

Chaos is not a solution for mismanagement.

Please see the Great Dipression, or the latest free market crisis when only governmental 'management' could prevent a collaps of your holy cow, aka, the 'free market'.

The free market doesn't care about competition you ditz. The free market cares about one thing, making the most dollars for the least investment. Take that to the bank moron. Let that be your golden rule in the church of 'free markets'.

Re: Davy, see 1/1/09 for what the 'free market' does.
by lonelynerd25

"Obama says that he will eliminate a couple hundred million dollars of waste and fraud.."

This claim was what turned me from reluctant Obama supporter to being convinced the guy is just your average lying (insert nasty adjective) politician.

Re: Governing is hard
by blueshift

DaveyNC:
And why did the comment function eliminate all my spacing? Sorry 'bout that.

Not sure, but until someone replies to a post you can always delete it and repost.

Re: Davy, see 1/1/09 for what the 'free market' does.
by blueshift

lonelynerd25:

"Obama says that he will eliminate a couple hundred million dollars of waste and fraud.."

This claim was what turned me from reluctant Obama supporter to being convinced the guy is just your average lying (insert nasty adjective) politician.

Why exactly? Do you not think there is a couple hundred billion of waste and fraud?


Re: Davy, see 1/1/09 for what the 'free market' does.
by Bondsman
blueshift:

lonelynerd25:

"Obama says that he will eliminate a couple hundred million dollars of waste and fraud.."

This claim was what turned me from reluctant Obama supporter to being convinced the guy is just your average lying (insert nasty adjective) politician.

Why exactly? Do you not think there is a couple hundred billion of waste and fraud?


The point is, if they know where there is a couple hundred billion in waste and fraud they should STOP IT RIGHT NOW! They most certainly should NOT hold us hostage and say, "we're going to let this 200 billion in waste continue unless you do what I want".

Obama is either lying saying he knows where there is easy savings to be made when he doesn't OR even worse, he is a very evil man who is NOT acting in the best interests of his country by removing the waste that he knows exists.

Re: Davy, see 1/1/09 for what the 'free market' does.
by blueshift

I think its a fair assumption that Obama's statement is just shorthand for Orszag's more detailed analysis. To the best of my understanding Orszag has really good data showing that the inefficiencies are there in the system but not yet where. For example costs differences between areas of the country, between our country and others and between individual doctors.

Hmm, I can't hyperlink for some reason right now, but see section V of:

<link>

Some of the inefficiencies will be found by the free market when private insurance can't so easily deny claims or coverage. Some will come from initiatives to systematically determine which interventions are actually ineffective or simply not cost effective.

Yes some of it could be addressed outside of complete reform, but reform was going to be the first big issue anyway so why wouldn't you wrap cost savings and expanded coverage up together?

Re: Davy, see 1/1/09 for what the 'free market' does.
by Bondsman

the economy isn't doing so hot right now. Why would you NOT act to start saving 200 billion *right now*?

Re: Davy, see 1/1/09 for what the 'free market' does.
by DaveyNC
I am absolutely convinced that there is a substantial amount of fraud, waste and abuse in the system. (I should have said a "couple hundred BILLION", not million). $200 billion is as good an estimate as any. I am equally convinced that it will never be rooted out of the system by Obama or anyone else. If he thinks he can get rid of it, show me the money. Get that done, and I might just drop my opposition to his proposed reforms. Funny that none of you hatah's took issue with my preferred reform, you just want to quibble over whether or not free markets are desirable.
Re: Davy, see 1/1/09 for what the 'free market' does.
by DaveyNC
Dude, you gotta do better than name-calling. Try refuting my points, not just asserting that I am a moron. Doofus.
Re: Davy, see 1/1/09 for what the 'free market' does.
by lonelynerd25

blueshift:

Bondsman is kind of on the right track. Look at the situation. For the past ten years Democrats have been complaining about the horrible fiscal situation of the Bush administration. They were right to. How come nobody ever proposed (or even mentioned, as far as I remember) possible Medicare savings? In fact, many of my more lefty friends often held up Medicare as a model of efficiency in conversations about why the government should take a much bigger role in health care. Then there was the whole Presidential election. No mention of hundreds of billions in waste in Medicare. Then Obama gets elected and wants to pass a big, expensive health care bill, but everybody's freaking out about the deficit. Suddenly it turns out that the money's already there! It's being wasted by Medicare! This reform won't cost a thing! Maybe there are hundreds of billions of waste in Medicare. I'm just some dude, I don't know. But doesn't this sequence of events seem a bit questionable, dare I say skeezy, to you? Doesn't it seem like the kind of crap your average sleazy politician would pull? It does to me. The old, "Give the folks some sweets to keep me in power for a few more years and hope the tough part doesn't come 'til I'm gone." Bush was an expert at that.


(Let's not also forget that Obama has mentioned that the deficit "keeps him up at night". If he was worried about it that much you'd think he might cut the Medicare fraud AND raise taxes to pay for the new spending? Or at least mention that they must be raised after the economy improves? But somehow that's not happening.)

Because the Government doesn't want to bankrupt the
by Stop-truth-decay

whole health care system. Most of the savings Obama proposes comes from cutting payments to hospitals and doctors. A substantial cut in their reimbursement means closing their doors. The latest figures I've seen is Medicare pays hospitals 93 cents on the dollar of acutual costs. Furthermore, there are no longer enough high paying insurance plans to shift costs on to and many plans use Medicare rates, plus (or even minus) a percentage for their reimbursements. There is a ripple effect.

As for true fraud, yes, there is some, but in order to catch it, you need a larger bureaucracy to monitor things. Thus you sacrifice some of Medicare's much touted "efficiency in administration."

Re: Davy, see 1/1/09 for what the 'free market' does.
by DirtyBird
According to government studies/reports, Medicare alone is infested with $60 billion a year in Fraud. That doesn't take into consideration waste. I assume it does include "abuse". That's a pretty nice chunk of change.
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