Below Sea Soldier was exchanging ideas about the present situation in our energy situation. He gave several examples of existing technologies that could be used to dig us out of the hole we have dug for ourselves.

I didn't read all of his sites that he presented but i read enough that I think I got a fair idea of his thinking. His contention simply being that their is technologies available to help us lessen our dependence on fossil fuels or more correctly more sources of fossil fuels.

Have you ever wondered how we as a nation became such a power house in the world of manufacturing? How much thought have you given that it was mainly due to plentiful supplies of cheap energy. I think I read somewhere that Texas had more know reserves of energy than the Middle East. If that was true, where did it all go? It went to power factories and homes and cars etc. of course. Would we have had such a viable auto manufacturing system, principle the big three, if American had not been blessed with plentiful supplies of cheap energy? Our whole way of life and what enabled us to sustain the so called American dream would never have been possible without cheap energy. T. Boon Pickens has stressed this fact.

Another fact that I have pondered is how much more dire would the present economic situation have become if Gasoline and other energy sources had remained high, and even went higher? We had $4.00 / $4.50 gasoline, what if gasoline had climbed to over $5.00 per gallon with a corresponding increase in all the other sources of energy? Do, most citizens of the country realize how many things are made from crude oil and natural gas. The fertilizer that farmers use to fertilize their crops are made from natural gas. Natural gas goes up, so ammonium nitrate prices rise with a corresponding increase in food prices. Everything is tied to the cost of energy in one way or another even getting all this wonderful merchandise to the stores with diesel powered semi-trucks.

One could honestly say that cheap energy is the lifeblood of our economy.

Sea's sources made the point that there are sources of crude in oil shale. Yes there are, I understand that Canada has immense quantities of oil shale. They know also that there is much recoverable oil under the seas. But, these barrels of oil are much costlier to obtain and of course will raise the price of a barrel of oil.

So if they build billion dollar oil drilling platforms made to survive the ravages of a storm at sea, of course we get the oil, but alas the prices goes up naturally.

So it changes the question from are we running out of sources of energy, to are we running out of sources of energy that can be obtained at a price that will enable this country to maintain our present place in the world?

Another site he gave was several person had made water and the hydrogen it contains a source of energy. Ahh what would be more appealing than to be able to fill your car from your water hose? Great, but then I would have to ask myself how many decades would it take to change over the cars and other forms of transportation engines that could use water as power? And in that time frame what happens to the American economy which has been built on a throw away philosophy and the promise of cheap energy?

I sincerely believe that the present economic situation partly was caused by those months when gasoline and other energy prices sky rocketed in price. I think the people who control the prices saw the handwriting on the wall and saw fit to lower prices. I think they realized they were killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. No of course not, it wasn't all high energy prices but it was a factor.

America will continue to buy crude in countries that are not really friendly to us because that is better than the alternatives. America had better grow up and smell the coffee. A bigger danger to our way of life is not terrorism. or Iran, Syria etc., or biggest danger is a Government and media that's really not informing us of the real dangers. Like the global warming episode, our economy is so fragile we just can't rock the boat or we will capsize. When you go to bed tonight you better pray for a solution to this energy "crisis".

If you believe there is a energy crisis, I have a bridge in San Francisco to sell you.

""Below Sea Soldier was exchanging ideas about the present situation in our energy situation. He gave several examples of existing technologies that could be used to dig us out of the hole we have dug for ourselves.""

No, we didn't dig the hole, corporations dug the hole and filled it with pollution which now contaminates the air we breath. Instead of using ALCOHOL as fuel, companies like GM moved away to fuels which they could stamp with a patent, wherein they promptly received royalties on every time you filled up your vehicle. [See GM hires Delco to find an ingredient to put in knocking gasoline to quiet and Ethyl. ]

""I didn't read all of his sites that he presented but i read enough that I think I got a fair idea of his thinking. His contention simply being that their is technologies available to help us lessen our dependence on fossil fuels or more correctly more sources of fossil fuels.""

You got it and I'm living with those now.

""Have you ever wondered how we as a nation became such a power house in the world of manufacturing? How much thought have you given that it was mainly due to plentiful supplies of cheap energy. I think I read somewhere that Texas had more know reserves of energy than the Middle East. If that was true, where did it all go? It went to power factories and homes and cars etc. of course. Would we have had such a viable auto manufacturing system, principle the big three, if American had not been blessed with plentiful supplies of cheap energy? Our whole way of life and what enabled us to sustain the so called American dream would never have been possible without cheap energy. T. Boon Pickens has stressed this fact.""

As a kid I worked in those fields, anything to get away from the ranch. I helped build many of the oil tanks you see there now. It's called the Permian Basin.

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""In the 1890s solar water heaters were being used all over the United States"" See this link for pictures: <link>

""Another fact that I have pondered is how much more dire would the present economic situation have become if Gasoline and other energy sources had remained high, and even went higher? We had $4.00 / $4.50 gasoline, what if gasoline had climbed to over $5.00 per gallon with a corresponding increase in all the other sources of energy? Do, most citizens of the country realize how many things are made from crude oil and natural gas. The fertilizer that farmers use to fertilize their crops are made from natural gas. Natural gas goes up, so ammonium nitrate prices rise with a corresponding increase in food prices. Everything is tied to the cost of energy in one way or another even getting all this wonderful merchandise to the stores with diesel powered semi-trucks.""

This happened with the advent of BIG OIL as they found more uses for oil product by-products. Instead of staying with fuels that gave off little or no carbons the dirtiest forms of fuels were concocted for profit leaving us with a polluted atmosphere to breath.

""One could honestly say that cheap energy is the lifeblood of our economy.""

It is a part of everyday life and is often manipulated by people who sit on their asses speculating all day.

""Sea's sources made the point that there are sources of crude in oil shale. Yes there are, I understand that Canada has immense quantities of oil shale. They know also that there is much recoverable oil under the seas. But, these barrels of oil are much costlier to obtain and of course will raise the price of a barrel of oil.""

I did not provide you with all the sources. Recently Colorado test holes proved out. In Alaska, there are new finds there too, as well as off the cost of our lands, however, these are not fuels that we want to burn but just tag and turn our attention to CLEANER FUELS. THERE IS NO LACK OF REGULAR OIL IN THE CONTINENTAL USA!

""So if they build billion dollar oil drilling platforms made to survive the ravages of a storm at sea, of course we get the oil, but alas the prices goes up naturally.""

Only one rig is used not like our old land rigs. At one time our forests were stripped for timber to build wooden derricks.

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Then steel derricks:

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Portable derricks:

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Ocean derricks:

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""So it changes the question from are we running out of sources of energy, to are we running out of sources of energy that can be obtained at a price that will enable this country to maintain our present place in the world?""

We are not running out of energy, in fact DISCOVERY finds and tags then leaves it in the ground for future use leasing said ground for future use. You and I pay those long term lease fees, did you know that? The same goes with GOLD, SILVER, and many other products. Driving through Odessa, Texas today compared to the early sixties tells the story.

""Another site he gave was several person had made water and the hydrogen it contains a source of energy. Ahh what would be more appealing than to be able to fill your car from your water hose? Great, but then I would have to ask myself how many decades would it take to change over the cars and other forms of transportation engines that could use water as power? And in that time frame what happens to the American economy which has been built on a throw away philosophy and the promise of cheap energy?""

The latter is a question BIG OIL doesn't want to face, and their lobbyists who provide funds to senators, representatives and presidents to keep them from charging ahead.

You can get a H2O conversion kit rather inexpensively and rid yourself of gasoline. No damage is done to the engine, in fact it burns cleaner.

""I sincerely believe that the present economic situation partly was caused by those months when gasoline and other energy prices sky rocketed in price. I think the people who control the prices saw the handwriting on the wall and saw fit to lower prices. I think they realized they were killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. No of course not, it wasn't all high energy prices but it was a factor.""

Lack of energy [high carbon fuels] was never a factor. Those high prices were a direct result of greed and war. Anything to scare the public. I ask you this: "If we all had our own sources of energy at home" how would government, who gets taxes from these industries fare? If no power companies were on line and we each had our own fuel sources bio friendly there goes the taxes, and then what would government do?

This is the reason for the coming December 4, 2009 Copenhagen TREATY SIGNING that will give the ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT authority to tax your ass even if you use no carbons.

""America will continue to buy crude in countries that are not really friendly to us because that is better than the alternatives. America had better grow up and smell the coffee. A bigger danger to our way of life is not terrorism. or Iran, Syria etc., or biggest danger is a Government and media that's really not informing us of the real dangers. Like the global warming episode, our economy is so fragile we just can't rock the boat or we will capsize. When you go to bed tonight you better pray for a solution to this energy "crisis".

What can I say. People don't believe any longer in anything, and if they do nine times out of ten their perception is way off.

Just look at who is asking for the CAP AND TRADE and that should tell you the real moral purpose involved.

Seasoldier/Don't wait on government.

I grew up in the Permian Basin. I graduated from Permian High School.

Small world, Texas, huh?

You recall Cookies Cafe?

Seasoldier/That was before the Interstate went around the city.

Wilson:

Yes, I do believe there is an energy crisis. Not totally because of availability, but because such few Companies have control over availability and therefor prices.

One only has to look at our lifestyle and the emphasis that we place on a plentiful supply of energy to realize if energy prices go up, marginal jobs that depend on energy are jeopardized.

It is because of our total reliance on mainly crude oil, from having a job, to getting to that job, to raising our food, transporting that food etc. that I say we have a crisis. It is called putting all one ones eggs in one (1) basket.

Sea:

I wonder if you realize how much we thnk alike? Back in the seventies my wife and family were very aware of the dangers our country faced after the Arab oil embargo. We got envolved with the Organic Gardening movement championed by Rodale. We thought it made sense then and it makes more sense now.

The idea behind Rodale's philosophy was to use your honmesite to raise as much food an fiber as possible to lessen the impact that Commercial agriculture was having on the safety and availability of food. Also as a consequence of this type lifestyle your energy needs would plummit because it stressed alternate ways of living which utilized things like solar water heaters.

Our place had almost exactly an acre of ground and we did many things on that acre. We had our own chickens for eggs, we raised chickens to butcher, we raised domestic rabbits for meat, which I might add if you can get past the prejudice that most people have against using them for food, we found they were there cheapest source of meat we could come up with. Why? because they of couse eat grass and grains and the ditchs here were full of brome grass, clover and alfalfa. A little grain at fattening for slaughter and you have excellent eating.

I bought a cow and feed her well. She produced enough milk to sell milk to three neighbors, which paid for her feed. We also raised a pig by feeding milk whey left from making cheese and butter and surplus garden produce and wastes. You can't have milk from a cow unless she gets pregnant and has a calf. The male calves were raised for meat, the females for milk which enabled me to go into the dairy business.

Does it work? Yes, with certain limitations. It really amazed us how good you could eat but of course nothing is free and you had to put work into the garden and animals.

But of course that was the premise of the movement, to switch your labor from working for others to working for yourself.

Most people don't won't to work. Most would rather live off the government than work. I was in Costa Rica when the energy hypothetical shortage came about and about to move my motor home back to the U.S. after a job. In Nicaragua $2.00 worth of gas was all you could get. Fortunately, I had added a 55 gallon tank to the motor home before ever taking in down there. It happened over night it seemed and here I was on the road with that hog.

In Guatemala I stopped at every station some hardly ever allowing more than $2.00 worth of fuel. People were really pissed off at Americans then, and here I was sitting in that 6mpg gas hog 10 at the most. In Honduras I knew an American who owned a TEXACO STATION on the Pan American Road. He allowed me to top off and told me that his supply was being cut, but since most people road in buses there he saw no harm in selling me the fuel. In British Honduras you could still buy fuel but a lot of the stations were closed. Once I crossed into Mexico there was no gas problem because, and I haven't researched this out completely yet, Mexico had nationalized what Smedley D. Butler and his Marines had won for Wall Street. I could buy all the cheap gas in Mexico that I wanted--then about 19 cents a gallon. I crossed into the states and had enough fuel aboard to make it all the way home but did see the occasional line here and there where people were waiting for gas.

I learned, but had no resources then to explain it, that another big lie had been perpetrated on the American public. It was then that I started complaining about $7.45 electric bills and scolding the electric companies for not taking advantage of the sun. They thought I was crazy!

And, here we are today, the year 2009, some 36 years later and no one has done anything to help start turning this around, hence, my efforts at doing it on my own. I belong now to a big club of people that know the truth and have decided to alter our own lives and to hell with government.

Seasoldier/If you look at all the timber put in telephone poles, rail ties, fence posts, you can only imagine how our great expansion West has contributed to weather problems.

On the front of the C-4 Circular Computer Manuel that I received in 1966 there was an owl. I recall reading and listening to one of our very first nav instructors as we followed along in that book what the wise owl stated: "Everyone is talking about the weather but no one is doing anything about it," or something to that effect. We can destroy our planet or we can keep it healthy, but in order to do this we have to learn to live with our natural elements, weather being the principle element.

Seasoldier/