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Drevil
by Schrodinger
+4 Reply

I owe greeneggsnham an apology. I never responded to his last set of questions for me. It wasn’t one of my typical “get distracted by a shiny object and then forget that I was talking to somebody moments (which are common for me)”. I didn’t respond to him because I couldn’t find a good way to respond to his question about my opinions on how the media portrays evil. The reason that I can’t find a good way to respond is because, in my opinion, it’s a bigger question than that, and there’s lots of corollaries to consider. “So why are you top-posting this, then, idiot?” you may be thinking right now. Well, I’m top posting it because I think it’s a worthy topic to discuss, and will hopefully generate some interesting discourse.

The first thing that came to mind for me was the debate (not the right word) that Rick Warren hosted last year during the Presidential race. One of the questions that he asked both candidates, if you recall, was something on the order of “Do you think there is such a thing as evil?” I distinctly recall finding that question to be an odd one to ask a presidential candidate. Why should I care if the President believes that there is such a thing as evil? Doesn’t a question like that require clarification: what kind of evil was he asking about, the evil of individuals, the evil of groups, existential evil, or the concept of Satan? Superficially, a pastor asking such a question would indicate that he was asking the candidates about Satan, as Satan is the cause of all “evils”, in the Christian mythos. But even this raises problems.

Milton’s Satan was cast out of Heaven for his vanity, and refusal to bend to the will of God. Both of those “sins” are distinctly American cultural attributes – being prideful is a positive attribute within our culture, and refusal to bend to authoritarianism is as well. Our culture shares Milton’s Satan’s sins. Yet substantial parts of our culture would never admit to supporting Satan, and still identify the concept of Satan as “evil”. Those same portions of our country would, and have, elected individuals who possess those qualities. So maybe Satan isn’t a good example of evil.

What is evil, then? The most convenient answer would appear to be that which violates cultural norms. Killing is evil. Except, of course, that murder is not evil if your life, property, or the lives of loved ones is on the line. Then, taking another’s life is no longer evil: it was necessary. Theft is evil. Unless you’re starving. Adultery is evil. Unless you’re in a loveless marriage. Exploitation is evil. Unless there is a profit to be gained. None of these things should be ground shaking to anyone beyond the age of 17, and this post is not meant to be a high-school dissertation upon the hypocrisy of what we deem evil. However, it is probably necessary to mention this aspect because it brings me to my central thesis.

Evil doesn’t exist. Evil is nothing more than a flexible construct that we use to define those things that we aren’t, and don’t strive to be. This function of evil also contributes to our habit of making caricatures of those whom we consider evil. Hitler stops being a damaged, insecure racist, and instead becomes this devil possessed with the sole intention of world domination and genocidal eugenics. Stalin goes from being a ruthlessly driven man, who seeks success at all costs, to becoming a mass-murdering psychopathic lock-step Communist. The interesting thing is that you probably pass by, interact with, work for, and possibly are even friends with people who possess very similar traits to either of these “evil” men, and yet you probably don’t view your cohort as evil.

Of course, those you know aren’t defined as evil because they haven’t performed evil acts. It’s unlikely that you know a mass murder, or a serial rapist, or a genocidal tyrant. There are problems with viewing actions as evil, though. The judgment of “evilness” is not subject to reality testing. In other words, evil doesn’t exist as a real-world thing for you to compare actions against. We base our judgments about what is or is not evil solely upon social comparisons – what others from our in-group view as evil. The Holocaust was an evil action because the social consensus says that it was so (note here that I’m not making a value judgment on whether or not the social consensus is “right”, because I need to use social consensus to arrive at such a decision). This point is furthered by the fact that some actions, like the killing of soldiers during war, are not viewed as evil. Fighting a war is functionally no different from mass murder, and yet the social consensus is that if it is done for the “right” reasons, then it must be different.

All of this brings me back to greeneggsnham’s original question regarding the media’s portrayal of evil. The portrayal of evil in pop culture helps to build those social constructs under which we are allowed to redefine evil to be not-so-evil. This is the reason that you’ll never see an antihero in a movie who believes in the systematic destruction of a certain race. This is the reason why the anti-hero of the Saw violence-porn movies kills people “so they can really live”. This is the reason why Hannibal Lector never kills and eats Clarice Starling. The media isn’t portraying the real social consensus of evil; the media is actually portraying the socially acceptable versions of evil. That is the evil that we can enjoy without that icky feeling that we’re corrupting ourselves by condoning “real” evil actions.

And I should end this by making clear that I’m not condoning “real” evil actions, either. I’m not really calling for us to abandon the social consensus of what actions can be deemed evil. This is an academic exercise for me, but is one that I find useful because it helps to illustrate both the human desire for concrete social markers, and the utter futility of that desire.

* I’m also saddened that the person for whom I voted to become President of the United States answered this question as “Yes, I believe there is evil in this world”.

Demme that's one good post, Schrodinger.
by Inkberrow

Demme to Hell. Couple thoughts.

In my opinion Warren asked that question because he viewed a straight-up response as indicative of the candidate's belief in something, something non-material. That they are "spiritual" in some way or another. Neither disappointed, as they both answered the question with that implication in mind.

Is "evil" solely a religious conception? Most would say "no", while I understand your reasons for saying "yes". While along the same lines I personally find the Nuremburg "crimes against humanity" conception as contingent and as rationally bereft as "hate crimes", Nuremburg is nonetheless considered a landmark in the fight against genuine "evil" by religionists and secularists alike.

Yes, (Milton's) Satan was cast out for pride, driven by envy. His "evil", arguably, was in deliberately seeking to undermine and corrupt God's creation and thereby consign the bulk of them to eternal torment with him. Of course, since this was supposedly God's wondrous Plan along, one wonders why God isn't haled before the court for crimes against humanity as well. The answer brings us back full circle to your point about "evil"'s paucity as a viable concept. Basically, evil means "disobedience" of God, for religionists anyway.

Now why in the world
by artandsoul

would it sadden you that the person for whom you voted would say "Yes, I believe there is evil in the world" when you, yourself, just said in the paragraph before that you see this as an academic exercise that is useful for illustrating the human desire for concrete social markers? Isn't that what Obama (I assume it was Obama) was saying? Or could have been saying? Isn't his education, and the sum total of his point in many speeches a recognition of the differences between what people actually feel/think and do and the necessity for society to both mirror and deny the existence of parameters?

What an odd thing for us to do with our Presidential candidates - put them in an interview situation with a "Pastor" of a church where no theological study is required, just a good speaking voice, an understanding of media, and "the love of Jesus in your heart" and that is what we're going to remember and judge our candidates about.

I think a case could be made that THAT is evil.

I believe evil is a word that is overused and misunderstood. It's definition is highly relative, but I don't think evil exists only in relativism. I think it exists in relationship. Not as some objective "thing" out there. Just as many philosophers define beauty as relationship - one thing in relation to another makes that original thing a thing of beauty ... triangles come to mind. One angle, not so much, yet a triangle - beauty.

Media's portrayal of evil is, to me, the distillation of distillation, the shortcut of a shortcut. Teeny tiny sound/image bytes that we've been trained to react to as "evil" -- paint a small black rectangle under the nose on any image and well, we know what THAT means - they're Hitler and thus evil. Poor Charlie Chaplin.

The media is a whore. And we seem, as a group, to love it. So we get the love we go for - the love of a whore. I believe that literature provides many opportunities for me to contemplate evil. Not always in the same way that others would do so. And maybe not even the way the author (or filmmaker) wants me to. It's relative. I bring my own self to it.

Did you see the film "Little Children"? Its haunting and stark in its portrayal of one of our current culture's "evils" and I think Todd Field did a tremendous job with it. There is evil in that film. But maybe not just what one thinks at first glance. I also think the good folks at South Park are pretty awesome about tackling evil. But they make me life while they do it.

I think Obama is a good President. He is a decent man. He is a politician. He played the game set before him - the one called: Get Elected. He played it well. I do not fault him for playing the game, I'm glad he did.

Religionists, maybe.
by artandsoul

But I would bet that theologians would say that evil is more about absence of God. Not in the sense of I am going to act as if there is no God. But rather acts that thwart the victims' search for or reach for God.

The mass killings in the ovens in Germany are often seen as evil because they didn't know, and couldn't reconcile. Even in the split second before a firing squad which may be cruel, there might not be evil, because the person can turn toward God.

This also applies in crimes against children, they don't know. They don't understand. They probably wonder why their mom or dad isn't helping them. There is a thing far worse than the cruelty of death in that.

Death cannot in and of itself be evil - none of us are getting off the planet any other way. But in relationship to others I think human beings can certainly make evil manifest.

Good Grief!
by artandsoul
"But they make me life while they do it." should read "But they make me LAUGH while they do it."
My understanding of evil
by meridiantoo

would be - that which causes pain or hurt or suffering.

If you were to inject qualifiers limiting hurt, pain and suffering "to the fewest, or to the least number" that would in many cases seem reasonable.

A society that brings hurt, suffering and pain would be evil, as would a person who does the same. If the agent is not capable of reasoning thought and control (a thunderstorm), it could not be seen as evil.

There are quite a number of very evil people. That is a fact. When you come up against any of them it is possible to experience an immediate and often very personal understanding of that statement.

As a side comment, I would object to your term "Christian mythos", preferring "Christian belief". I guess you could be of the opinion that "all is mythos" and I would not object to that.

Peace to you in your journey

Nest your drevil.
by Keifus

(Regrettably, this is the third or fourth post I've read in the past 24 hours that requires a substantive reply to do it justice. I feel like such a moron waving my thumb around, and yet that's all I can afford right now. But someone has to reply accordingly.)

I'd say that evil is generally something far outside the social norms, or maybe better still, antithetical to them. Or antithetical to the principles derived from some moral philosophy (the axioms of which I suppose still must be social norms) or human behavior study.

I agree with you that the notion of evil as it is usually presented has a strong us-vs-them component, often quite conveniently. You do need an "us" to generate a social consensus.

Don't fight it, A & S---
by Inkberrow

Another Jungian slip.

Whence Comest Thou?
by ducadmo
If there is no evil, how can there be good? If good is constructive, is entropy all we have to overcome? I think there are darker powers than the void - powers that can wield the void itself. Yet, the very conversational tone of the first chapter of Job has always intrigued me. Mankind, the noble handiwork of God and Satan his doggedly persistent critic with the power to exploit our flaws and frailties, challenging even the will of the Son of God. Mythos, you say? If only it were true. That would be good.
Semantics Schemantics
by Schrodinger

I don't know that there's a meaningful difference between "hate crimes" and "evil". Possibly "hate crimes" is a subset of all things considered to be "evil". I'm not sure.

If you're right that Warren's intention was to identify, through implict acknowledgment of religious dogma, belief in "something", then I view the question even more negatively. I thoroughly dislike cultural "code words", and I dislike the tendency for Christians (of the evangelical variety) to use them as passwords for ingroup membership. The reason why is this - hypothetically, if Obama had given the (more) intellectually honest answers of "I don't know", or "That depends on of what evil you're speaking", he would have "failed" the evangelical test, and would be branded as a poor specimen of a human being, unfit to be elected.

On "fighting evil": this was kind of the subtextual question that I was going for in my post. How, exactly, does one "fight" "evil"? By putting to death those who would commit evil? Why shouldn't that approach be viewed as paradoxical?

Evil as disobediance to God is an interesting concept, in that aren't we all acting in disobedience to God? Do we not defy his orders on a daily, possibly hourly, basis? Can a human being, being an imperfect creation of God, ever hope to not defy God, and thus be evil?

*Sadden* may have been too strong
by Schrodinger
Maybe "disappoint"? The reason why is that I view Obama as a thoughtful person, and I doubt that he has accepted the Christian concept of "evil" part and parcel. Because of that assumption, I would say his answer was intellectuall dishonest, in that it traded a thoughtful reply for a politically-neutral reply. I still retain a fair amount of youthful naivete regarding my elected officials, and so would like for them to at least make an attempt at being intellectually honest. I think we agree on everything else you mentioned.
Mythos, as in the Greek word for "legend"
by Schrodinger

Which, I think we would agree, is a fair enough estimation.

What would you say make a person discernably "evil", M2?

My question for you
by Schrodinger
Do we need either good or evil?
Re: Is there good/evil?
by Lono

This question implies a sort of karmic force that inspires individuals to act in a certain way. I'd say there are good actions and evil actions, and that individuals can be classified by the actions they undertake.

Is there a force that drives people to act one way or the other? I dunno about that.

Good question [eom]
by ducadmo
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