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Arkady
by Phoen-X

I've posted this question during the weekend without a response...

I heard last Thursday that the Matthew Shepard - Hate Crimes bill passed in the Senate and has been sent to Obama to sign into law...

Q. Has anyone heard when he (Obama) intends to sign it?

Thanks in advance!

Dave

Re: Arkady
by Arkady
Sorry, no clue -- you're a step ahead of me, since I didn't even know the bill passed the Senate. I'm ambivalent about hate crimes laws. I can see decent arguments for and against.
Re: Arkady
by MaryAnne
Dave,I think that was an amendment to the crime bill.It is all one bill. I may be wrong,but tht is what I understand.
Re: Arkady
by Zam-Zam
It seems to me that if you kill someone, whether or not you hated them is irrelevant. They are no less dead if you didn't.
Re: Arkady
by MaryAnne
I am with you both on this one. Dead is dead,no matter the reason. Just more foolishness in Congress to make the law harder to follow.One law for all.You kill,you are punsihed.
Re: Arkady
by Phoen-X

Thanks for feedback everyone, I'll try to catch it in the news.

I guess it got me curious because they said the bill had a past history of failure, knocked down by Bush - etc.

Here's a link: <link>

Dave

Re: Arkady
by Arkady

Well, first I think it's unproductive to analyze hate-crimes legislation in the context of murder, since penalties for murder are already rightly very harsh, regardless of whether group "hate" was a factor. Instead, I find it most productive to consider hate crimes legislation in the context of lesser crimes where it might, in some cases, make sense to have light punishments, and in other contexts might make sense to have harsh punishments.

An example I've provided before would involve trespassing and minor destruction of property.

Case A: Your neighbor is pissed off at you because your kids keep throwing their balls in his yard and leaving them, your dog keeps taking a dump in his yard, and your big tree keeps dropping leaves all over his treeless lot, which he has to spend hours raking. So, one night, after repeatedly letting you know how upset he is about your family's behavior, he gathers up the toys and the dog poop, and the leaves, makes a big pile in your front yard, and lights it on fire, to send you a message. Nobody's hurt and the only physical damage is a little burnt spot in your grass.

Case B: Your neighor is pissed off at your because you're black, and he doesn't think black folks have any business moving into a white neighborhood, bringing crime with them and driving down property values. So, one night, after repeatedly letting you know how upset he is about your family's arrival, he builds a cross in your front yard, and lights it on fire, to send you a message. Nobody's hurt and the only physical damage is a little burnt spot in your grass.

The crimes, in each case, are physically very similar. He trespassed on your land, destroyed some of your lawn, and was probably guilty of some unlicensed burning or maybe even minor arson. But would you really argue that the two crimes should be punished equally? I would think that the guy in Case A was out of line, but a slap on the wrist would be plenty. The message he sent was sent narrowly to you, and didn't signal much of a threat of violence. By comparison, the guy in Case B needs a lot more than a slap on the wrist. The message he sent was sent to all black people living in or considering moving to the neighborhood, and the symbol he chose was heavy with the threat of violence -- it was a symbol with a well-known history of being a pre-lynching warning.

So, should the differing motivations between Case A and Case B really be treated as irrelevant? Or, given the much stronger reason society has to discourage the kind of behavior in Case B, should the group-hatred behind Case B be taken into account and justify a harsher punitive disincentive for such behavior?

When we start to look at lesser crimes, like that, rather than at murder, it's easier to understand why society would want extra punitive powers to discourage certain behavior than other, facially-similar behavior. Another example might be the difference between a kid who beats up a classmate for personal reasons versus a kid who beats up a classmate for being a Jew. Although it probably doesn't make a huge difference to the immediate victim of the crime whether he was targeted for personal or group-identity reasons, it will make a difference to others. If he was targeted for being a Jew, the attack constitutes a threat against all the Jews in the school, meaning there are more indirect victims. And from society's perspective, there's a greater threat of the criminality developing dangerous social momentum when it's group-based criminality than if it's based in personal differences between two individuals. We saw in Nazi Germany what can happen if violent anti-semitism is allowed to build up momentum within a society. So, one could argue that justifies society doing more to block criminality that is motivated by group animosities than criminality that doesn't include those wider social implications.

The other thing to think about, with hate crimes legislation, is the fact it's used as a way to get federal jurisdiction where a locality might be expected to overlook a crime due to institutional bigotry. If Case B happened to you, and the local police and prosecutors were good old buddies of your cross-burner, who shared his thoughts about black people moving into the neighborhood, you might like the idea that you could appeal to the federal government for a prosecution, rather than relying on the local boys.

Re: Arkady
by Arkady
Would your stance be the same for lesser crimes than murder? For example, would you want the same punishment for someone who burns a pile of rubbish on his neighbor's lawn, because of personal differences with the neighbor, as for a person who burns a cross on his neighbor's lawn, because his neighbor's black and he doesn't like black people living in the neighborhood?
Re: Arkady
by TickleBob

Sometime after he makes a decision on Afghanistan - it might be this year or in three years.

Obama to sign hate crime bill on wed.
by Elaine_
Re: Obama to sign hate crime bill on wed.
by MaryAnne
Thanks Elaine.That amendment has no business in the Defense bill.
Re: Obama to sign hate crime bill on wed.
by Elaine_
Thats what I thought to, maryAnne. Could not figure out why it was included in that bill, unless they just figured they would throw it in some where to save time and money or to get it passed quicker.
Thanks Elaine!!
by Phoen-X

I think they attached it to the defense bill so it would have the votes to pass.

Dave c[_]~~~

Re: Obama to sign hate crime bill on wed.
by MaryAnne

You are quite right,Elaine,so is Dave. That is one of my irritations with Dems.Once they gain power they throw in all of their little pet projects,they cannot get the honest way.

Of course Cons do the same thing.

Re: Obama to sign hate crime bill on wed.
by TickleBob

Time & money are never the consideraions of attaching ammendments to bills. They do it when they think ( or know ) that it won´t pass on it´s own merit, but willl pass attaching it to legislation that will pass.

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