For the first letter writer, why would Prudie "set aside the possibility that you are the one with a problem and resent the fact that your fiance and his sister seem to have an unusually close bond"? Either the brother and his sister are having a secret, incestuous relationship despite one being married and one being engaged, or the fiancée is jealous. The second option is clearly the simpler and more likely one. It seems to me it is the damning term "footsie" that gets in the way. Yes, footsie can mean that two people are sensually rubbing their feet up and down the others' leg, touching intimate areas and deriving sexual pleasure underneath the dinner table. But, in this context, it probably just means they were kicking at each other playfully. And that's what I see here: Immaturity, not incest. These two siblings probably just revert a bit to childish behavior when they are together. Which can be a problem as well, but I think it's a bit overblown for both the fiancée and Prudie to jump to the conclusion of sex. (Not that it's impossible, but it seems strange to ignore the more likely conclusion.) This engaged couple still has a lot to discuss, but I'm pretty sure the conversation will go a lot better if one party doesn't enter it with the assumption that the other is sleeping with his sister.

Of course, if you've been reading too much mythology, Occam's Razor clearly cuts in the direction of incest.

Exactly, I found it really weird that Prudy calls this incest. Many siblings have a physical relationship with each other, which would be weird for a relationship between non-lovers. It's the special sibling relationship that allows for this, without the weirdness that you would get with non-siblings.

My guess is that the LW is a single child and can't understand this. She should really stop seeing the sister as just another attractive girl that is a threat to their relationship and accept that she is a person that her boyfriend grew up with and who is the only girl in his life who he can play around with, without sexual connotations

It may also be that he comes from an extremely touchy-feely family. It is just the brother and sister, or is it everyone? I have a good friend whose family can't be in the same room without touching each other in some way--father, mother, brother, and two sisters are always massaging each other or playing with each other's hair. On the one hand, it's nice to see affection instead of people screaming at each other, but on the other hand, it creeps EVERYONE else in the room out. But what do you say? "Please stop stroking your sister's hair"? "You look like you're one back massage away from needing a room"?

It seems to me that LW1 is going to have to put up with it or walk away, because 1) it's probably not going to change, and 2) I don't think it's the Flowers in the Attic scenario that she and Prudie have leapt to.

I, too, am surprised that Prudie would go there, especially on the thin evidence presented here.

1. "Several times, he's called me by her name."

I don't know of anyone that doesn't call someone the wrong name occasionally -- especially if both are people that they spend a lot of time with. I occasionally call one of my sons by his brother's name and it certainly doesn't mean I conflate the two. Unless he's calling her by his sister's name while they're having sex, I don't see this as proof of anything.

2. "At the last family dinner, he was playing footsies with her under the table."

My mind didn't go to the "sensuously rubbing up and down each other's legs with their feet" place, either. Maybe since I have a 23-year old (married with a kid) and a 22-year old that end up picking at each other like little kids whenever they're together, I instantly pictured the siblings stepping on each other's toes and kicking each other and giggling. Yeah, it can be very annoying, but an indication of an untoward relationship? Not so much. Especially since it was a family dinner. Are we really supposed to believe that they were engaging in some sort of sexual flirtation with the parents, the husband, the fiance, and possibly the inlaws and/or grandparents present?

3. "My boyfriend knows very private things about her, the kind I would never discuss with my brother."

Define "private". Maybe the LW would never discuss much more than weather with her brother. We certainly don't know. Does he know his sister is trying to get pregnant? Or does he know her favorite sexual position? There's certainly a wealth of difference between the two.

"I do distance myself from her because I don't like being with the two of them due to their behavior...Am I being unreasonable?"

If she really believes that her fiance is acting inappropriately with his sister, why is she even still in this relationship? If it turned out to be true, would she really want to continue to be with him, even if he stopped? I think that she doesn't really believe there is anything going on, she just wants permission to tell him that he has to put distance between him and his sister because, "see, even the advice columnist thinks you're creepy! Now pay more attention to me, dammit!" Maybe she's jealous because she wishes her relationship with her own brother was closer. Maybe she just doesn't like him acting so goofy whenever his sister is around. Maybe she's just an insecure, jealous cow that can't stand to see him paying attention to anyone else, especially when she's sitting right there. Whatever the problem is, these two need to talk. However, if she opens with "so just what are you doing with your sister, anyway!", I don't think the conversation (or the engagement) will last too long.

If something creeps you out, then usually there's something creepy going on. Never fails. The tip-off is that the guy gets upset" when his fiancee mentions that he's acting a little odd. If nothing was going on, he would laugh it off.

MessyONE:

If something creeps you out, then usually there's something creepy going on. Never fails. The tip-off is that the guy gets upset" when his fiancee mentions that he's acting a little odd. If nothing was going on, he would laugh it off.

"Hahaha! That's a good one! You think I'm screwing my sister! Hahaha!"

I don't think this particular accusation can be laughed off. All the more reason for this couple to break up.

tkc:

I, too, am surprised that Prudie would go there, especially on the thin evidence presented here.

1. "Several times, he's called me by her name."

I don't know of anyone that doesn't call someone the wrong name occasionally -- especially if both are people that they spend a lot of time with. I occasionally call one of my sons by his brother's name and it certainly doesn't mean I conflate the two. Unless he's calling her by his sister's name while they're having sex, I don't see this as proof of anything.

When I first read it, I assumed fiancé called LW by sister's name in bed. But not even.

I really must disagree with the idea that if something creeps someone out that there is something creepy going on. I know plenty of people who are creeped out because of phobias, childhood traumas, personal hangups, religious beliefs, matters of taste, on and on. That the LW is creeped-out may mean this isn't the right relationship for her, but it doesn't mean that her boyfriend's relationship with his sister is incestuous.

although the possibility of incest is never "zero", it does seem at the fringe of the radar screen here.

prudie wanted to show her chops in classical mythology (since she has no credentials as a counsellor), hence the weird exposition on ancient times.

my (admittedly limited) presumptions about incest is that (1) after 4 years he'd have talked to her about it, if it happened, and (2) its something that, if it did happen, you grow out of, rather than make a joke of and pretend to continue. at least i imagine the greeks and romans reacting this way

but i hold out the possiblity that i may be wrong, and on mount olympus they play footsie under the dinner table for centuries, and laugh about it.

People have become too accustomed to questioning themselves over everything. Most of the time their initial gut reaction is right, they've just been trained not to trust it. I see where you're coming from on matters of taste, prejudice or phobias, and clowns creep the hell out of me. Sometimes there's just that niggling little "ick" thing going on that you can't really articulate - and it's never steered me wrong. *********** ********** ******** ************ ********** *********** ************ ************** ************* ************ *********** *********** Even if the worst case isn't true, there's something about this relationship that's off. Generally people who are THAT close to their sibs (knowing all about his sister's sex life, eew) are lousy partners. See, spouses are supposed to come first, siblings second. Always.

Never wrong when you have that gut feeling, eh. That is a big claim. I see nothing in the letter to indicate that he was putting his sister first. Is it because his fiancee does not like what he is doing that he is putting her first? So, if she does not like him acting like a goofball with his sister around his family, who presumably would know that he is a goofball, he is putting someone else first? You are adding facts that are not in evidence.

I agree that sometimes instincts are right. But, it is much more plausible that she was raised in a much different household in which her family was not as playful, touchy, affectionate or multiple other descriptors that could apply. In that case, things that are not big deals and have no sexual connotation whatsoever, may appear to have it.

OT, but what's with the asterisks? Does that mean it's been edited or something?

MessyONE:

If something creeps you out, then usually there's something creepy going on. Never fails. The tip-off is that the guy gets upset" when his fiancee mentions that he's acting a little odd. If nothing was going on, he would laugh it off.

I very easily could have been LW1 save for the fact that I ran from that relationship years ago. I dated him in college. He had a relationship with his older and only sister which creeped me out. She discussed intimate sexual details and even menstrual goings-on with him, was strangely possessive and had a history of demeaning the women he dated. I tried talking to him about it in a not-crazy-way and he was very defensive to the point of getting angry.

I come from a large family. I have four siblings - 2 male and 2 female. I would NEVER discuss my sexual experiences in detail with them. His defensiveness/anger when I told him that type of sharing was disturbing to me was a huge red flag.

I'll never know whether I was right but I the creepiness of their relationship was one of the main reasons I broke up with him.

OT, what's the deal with your posts, MessyOne? Are the boards that messed up that it can't deal with paragraph breaks, or are you in some sort of vendetta with the Mod?