let me take a moment to (seriously) side with Obama on important topic.

he's been accused of "waffling" on sending more troops to Afghanistan.

waffling is called for in this circumstance.

a cloud of suspicion surrounds Karzai's election results - at least as big a cloud as the one which surrounded Ahmadinejad in Iran. (to his credit Karzai doesn't appear to be jailing and torturing to death his opposition, however)

i support Obama's efforts to ensure honest elections (a run off) in the Afghan elections. if Americans are going to be sent there to die for something, I don't want it to be a dictatorship.

i probably lean in the direction of Afghan withdrawal to begin with - a position which will be an anathema to some of my conservative fellow travellers in this fray.

but i don't see a clear endgame for the present afghan path we're on. it hardly seems possible that we can secure every village and hamlet strung out across the mountainous wasteland against taleban infiltration. adding a corrupt, unpopular karzai regime to the mix just makes it that much MORE unsavory.

the afghan people deserve a government they back. and if they can't get that, we shouldn't back the unpopular government.

i believe that our military plan for afghanistan may eventually need to be modelled after the one we're using in pakistan. attack terrorist targets with cruise missles and UAVs from the air, rather than try to build up a large enough ground force to control a wasteland.

if allah hadn't wanted us to use our cruise missles to defeat islamic radicals, he wouldn't have given them to us after all.

I have decided to come down on the side of pulling the troops out immediately and letting Afghanistan go to hell.

I don't think Obama wants to win and I am not convinced that we can win anyway, even with the additional troops. And even if we do win, what will we win? I say cut the losses and not waste anymore American lives.

Jack

The BA-Biden Doctrine!

Waffling is the absolute worst choice. If we pull out, at least we're not getting shot. If we follow the advice of all military officials (including Bob Gates, who has now irritatedly swatted aside Rahm's injudicious Sunday remarks), we can win the thing. If we continue spinning our wheels, we're sending our guys into a losing situation, and they get to die for it. Great!

At what point was Obama's pledge to win in Afghanistan predicated upon the existence of Jeffersonian democracy? You'll never get that. A British official in Rhodesia as once asked whether there were any irregularities in the elections there. His reply: "Jesus, man. This is Africa, not Surrey."

If you're looking for an excuse to vacate a third world country, then "tainted election" is always available. But it's ridiculous for the administration to act surprised by it, or that it's the reason for their change of heart, which is more a matter of domestic politics.

And it makes absolutely no sense for them to dither while our guys are still there.

I appreciate reading that and you putting it into some perspective.

Also, it is sheer folly for the American Military to ever believe they can stop the Opium Trade there. It's their life's blood and there is no way they can make the sort of living or for them physically to be able to haul any other crop ,on their donkeys (like wheat or barley as its been tried and is far too much load work and impossible for them to profit from, compared to the easier movement of the opium buds , in the same manner).

Agree, with your take on it.

Love that last line.

I have to add though, it does still irk me, an awful lot that Obama promised to keep after Osama Bin Laden.and just like Bush..has completely avoided dealing with the subject of Bin Laden since getting elected.

Despite appy's insistence (and how he would know is anyone's guess, anyway) that Bin Laden is dead, Bin Laden remains on The FBI's Most Wanted List and he is the perpetrator of 9/11 the greatest attack on American soil. It makes me very angry he is still at large at not being dealt with.

fighting for in Afghanistan that can't be accomplished with some UAVs flying around overhead. I agree with your assessment. There is no point staying in Afghanistan to fight just so so we can say we didn't lose.

bin laden is being sought by obama with the same assets (cia, afghan and pakistan intelligence) which were available to bush. there's not much obama can do to improve the quality of information, i'm afraid

and there's some thought that killing (or even trying and imprisoning) bin laden would re-energize his base.

he's less powerful hiding in a mud hut or cave than he is in the news.

Nobody gives a flying fuck about Afghanistan. It's now about Pakistan. Everybody cares about Pakistan. Why? This is why the Iranians want nukes. Everybody would care a lot more about Afghanistan if they had nukes instead of poppies.

Should we stay or should we go?

I agree with you on almost all points here. Sometimes I get s. & t. of all the coverage on Afghanistan but then I remember the build-up to our involvement in Iraq and how it did not get discussed enough (or challenged enough) and I cool back down. And try to learn as much as possible. Given the bad history that the Western nations (and Russia) have had in trying to 'tame' Afghanistan, I don't see how our continued involvement there can lead to much good. And yes, Pres. O. is wise to take some time, consider ALL options & move wisely before deciding what path to take. Good post. (Love your last line, wise guy.)

He is not wise to take his time. He's criminally negligent. Good of him, as President, to deign to spend a couple of hours thinking about an actual large-scale shooting war in which his country is involved. Took busy time away from the Olympics and Letterman and trying to ineffectually sell a takeover of health care for the twenty-eighth time. I'm sure the troops appreciate his thoughtfulness.

I hear you, Urq and I, too, am frustrated with him on some of his issues and performance. But I do think, in terms of getting us further involved in a major shooting war, it is wise to look at all scenarios and possibilities. As for the Olympics business, plus Letterman & let's not forget, Henry Louis Gates Jr. vs. the Cambridge cop, I agree totally with those who say he is too scattered and not focused enough. He doesn't seem to be able to discriminate between minor and major issues, and as to criticality & priorities. I do think he does need to push through health care reform, though. It is sorely needed, especially among those who are not (unlike yourself) of the privileged classes ... and it is far past 'about time' for such reform. Best, "Connie" p.s. why not read my Broncos Top Post since you've now chosen to honor the mocking copycat post w. your presence? Fair's fair, Bertie.

Unless you think raising everyone's premiums and taxes while providing crappier care from fewer doctors is sorely needed. And it's certainly a war of choice, as critics would say of the Iraq war. Not like it's a crisis or anything.

And I don't care about your Big Feud with the Cooter fray, which wouldn't interest me in the least except that you see fit to pollute the entire board with it.

Leaving entirely is not an option under serious consideration. The question really is two parts - what are we trying to accomplish and how what resources will that take. Time is a resource. Time is a very valuable resource on both sides and they have more than we do.

but since you a member of the well-endowed ruling elite, I don't expect you to see that. Nor will I discuss this issue with you again; you're clearly (ideologically) artery-hardened on the topic.I don't imagine that you come into much contact, in your daily life, with those who do need it. When was the last time you were in a public library, on a bus or other public transportation or some similar type of venue. How many friends do you have who work in public health or directly with the public in a health setting? (I have four, no, five.) As for your ridiculous last sentence, most people on here seem quite onboard with my attitude towards The Gizzards. (It's you who is out of touch, imho.)

Humint is really the only way to crack that code and as long as we keep tossing the wrong people out for the wrong reasons it makes it a little more difficult.