All vehicles are more efficient when they maintain momentum. Braking and accelerating are inherently less efficient than cruising at a constant speed.

For a human-powered vehicle, however, inefficiency just means the operator is getting more exercise. Unless cyclists are nearing exhaustion, a little less efficiency is a good thing. The real complaint of cyclists is that stopping takes longer, extending their commute time. Of course, it takes longer for cars, too.

Momentum is not the only issue. On a bicycle, when you stop, put your foot on the pavement, and start up again you are in danger. You are much more likely to have a spill and fall into traffic, and you tend to wobble starting up, especially uphill. It is safer to come to a near stop, moving just fast enough to maintain balance, and then look both ways. If a car is coming and will come through before your turn, then you should stop completely.

No bicyclist any any circumstances should "blow through" a stop sign as if it were not there. That is suicidal. A bicyclist should always stop for a red light or a pedestrian in a crosswalk.

If your are that much of a danger to fall over you shouldn't be on a bike. I ride to work every day (and have for more than 10 years), stopping at all stop signs and lights in one of the hilliest cities in America and have never once seen a cyclists on their side from falling over at a stop sign or light. I have been hit by more than one bike that failed to stop for me while I legally crossed the street in a crosswalk.

JedRothwell's post sounds more like reason than like rationalization.

Clip pedals make a bike much more efficient, but also more difficult to stop and start. It doesn't make you a Critical Mass advocate to offer cyclists a rolling stop, as long as they yield right of way to pedestrians, and to cars or cyclists who arrived first at an intersection.

Insisting on purity is a fine game for paid advocates and people who crave unproductive confrontation, but it should be pretty easy to set reasonable guidelines for bicycles.

Jwin wrote:

"If your are that much of a danger to fall over you shouldn't be on a bike."

Everyone is in more danger when starting. It is the laws of physics. This is especially true with toeclips, which otherwise improve safety.

When I see a car approaching the stop sign from any direction, I always stop completely and wait to see what the car will do. You never know when a car coming toward you might turn.

"I ride to work every day (and have for more than 10 years), stopping at all stop signs and lights in one of the hilliest cities in America and have never once seen a cyclists on their side from falling over at a stop sign or light."

I have. I myself have not fallen over but I am an experienced rider and I always leave the toeclips loose. I stop at all stop signs too, but not always completely. I slow down to less than a walking speed (<3 mph).

"I have been hit by more than one bike that failed to stop for me while I legally crossed the street in a crosswalk."

As I said, a bicyclist should always stop for pedestrians in crosswalks, or even pedestrians who are jaywalking. I once plowed into a pedestrian on Wisconsin Avenue in DC. He was running through traffic dodging cars. He almost made it to my side. I never saw him. He had to go to the hospital. I was fine. It was scary.

C'mon -- seriously? You have so much trouble starting up on your bike that it's "dangerous" for you to stop? What are you, six? Do you need training wheels again? If the toe clips are the problem, methinks you might want to get rid of them if it makes it hard for you to ride without being a menace to drivers and to pedestrians. A driver of a car can hardly complain that the supercharger he put on his engine makes it tough for him to downshift and come to a stop and so he should be allowed to breeze through red lights. You want toeclips for your comfort? Well, learn to use them consistently with the traffic laws. If you can't, start walking.

garkon38 wrote:

"C'mon -- seriously? You have so much trouble starting up on your bike that it's "dangerous" for you to stop?"

It is dangerous for anyone riding a bicycle, not just me. This is physics, as I said. It was discussed in great detail in a article by Wilbur Wright, who understood the physics of bicycles quite well. Anyone observing people riding bicycles will see this. As I mentioned, I personally have not fallen while starting up, but I have seen many people fall or swerve while starting up, including an experienced rider a few days ago.

I suggest you stop personalizing this discussion and refrain from ad hominem attacks, and also the slippery slope logical fallacy and exaggeration. Just because I say that stopping completely is comparatively hazardous that does not mean that I personally am incapable of stopping and starting or that I need training wheels. I suggest that the safest way to ride is to first slow down to slower than a walking pace, giving yourself as much time as a car driver takes, and then stop completely if necessary. I base this suggestion on the physics of bicycles -- which are quite different from cars -- and the skill level of a typical rider. I may be incorrect, but your childish and inflammatory response does not make your case.

Nice try. Seriously. Act as self-important and condescending as you like, but it's hard to muddy the water when you are trying to assert that it's dangerous for you to stop your bike in obeying basic traffic laws. If you're incapable of stopping, then don't ride. As for physics, thanks for the penny-lesson -- grade schoolers understand gyroscope effects. Yup. You have to put your foot down when you slow and you have to launch yourself when you start if you want to keep your balance. Big deal. Grade schoolers, you will note, also understand what a stop sign means. You can try to confuse the issue as much as you like by citing "physics" in as serious a tone as you like. You just end up sounding even more self-important and silly. Regardless of your skill level on a bike, stop means stop. If the rider can't handle that simple edict, time to use up some shoe leather. I say this as a rider by the way.

Cliped (or clipless, the binding type pedals) are pretty frigging easy to use, if you fall down because you are stuck in them, maybe you ride with a pair of flat pedals. All this rationalization is pretty ridiculous.

Why do internet discussions result in two people arguing about two different points?

You are still rationalizing selfish behavior and doing in so doing it make all cyclists look like horses asses. When you run a stop sign or a light, you aren't only effecting yourself and those in cars, but you are effecting all those around you. Go to Copenhagen, it is the most cycled city in the world (yes more so than any in Holland, as automobiles are much more expensive in Denmark than they are in Holland). The cyclists there stop for every light and sign, even if they are turning right. Since Roman Polanski seems to be a popular topic on slate.com lets use someone such as him as an example. If a pedophile claim they are only engaging in sex with prepubescent children because they are less likely carrying HIV, or Hep C, and thus safer, would you be OK with that? I mean they probably may know someone who is afflicted by such diseases.

also the Gyroscopic effect doesn't keep a bicycle up. <link>

jwin wrote:

". . . also the Gyroscopic effect doesn't keep a bicycle up."

Well, it helps, as the article you cited says. But mainly it is what the author calls the "the trail":

"Gyroscopic forces are not important for the stability of a bicycle . . . but they help us to control the bike when riding with no hands. . . . More important than anything is 'the trail'.

. . . The faster we ride, the smaller the steering adjustment needs to be, simply because the bike moves much further in a given time. When riding very slowly the steering adjustments required are very large. When completely at rest, active steering can do nothing for us."

That was my point. Slow speed and starting up are a little hazardous.

On a track bike with direct drive between the pedals and wheels, I have seen people stay still. without falling over. Perhaps they move back and forth slightly.

Anyway, you seem to be taking my argument to an extreme, and claiming that I suggest people "ignore" stop signs. That is not at all what I said, or meant.

JedRothwell - your patience is admirable.

I suspect that your antagonists have seen a few too many of the self-righteous riders who will support any specious argument that seems to support total exemptions from either law or common courtesy, and they can't imagine that your approach is any different.

But a good look at the way good, considerate cyclists ride will show that almost every one coasts slowly through stop signs, yielding to pedestrians and traffic with right-of-way.

It's a beautiful day here. Time to take the bike out, clip in and go.

What?

This guy claimed that he should be able to ignore laws that pertain to the safety of those other than him because of the increased danger of falling over when starting from a stop. What is the increased danger? Infinitesimal. such that if this were an actual physics or math problem we would ignore that section of the equation because compared to the other side it is zero. (he saw someone almost fall over once).

If your toe clips or cleated pedals are making you have problems falling over, maybe you should get a set of flat pedals for your safety and the safety of others or maybe you aren't ready yet for a two-wheeler and should go back to your trikey.


I commute to work by bicycle in one of the hilliest cities in America, have been commuting in cities all over the country for more than 25 years including Western New York in the wintertime. Have been doored and hit my cars, and bikes in my time.

No I'm pissed because people so easily pick and choose rules to ignore, and refuse to see the effect on those around them that their cavalier attitude has. And this is a ridiculous rationalization. (I've seen cars get rear ended because the stopped for a clearly red light, should cars too be able to ignore red lights?) I will just as quickly call to get a car ticketed that is parked in the bike lane.