Saletan thinks birth control is a good analogy? Maybe he thinks he'll score points with his kooky Slate feminist collegues.

Women use birth control - and should be the ones using birth control, because it gives them the control over their own reproduction. This is so simple, I'll explain it so that even Slate writers can understand.

Imagine if birth control pills only worked on men, now women. A man and woman meet, things start to get hot, they head for bed. The woman asks "Are you on the pill?" What do you think the man will say? You see? The man has all the power, and the woman has to trust a guy with screaming erection. The last thing a woman should want is birth control in the hands of men. Marriage is a special case, and hardly worth giving up control from single women. And a condom can be verified, so it's irrelevant.

This is exactly the kind of kooky, unthinking feminist meme that bounces around for decades without examination, because it's used more for group identity than for policy. Women may regret the burden of contraception, but I doubt many want to give up the control. The pro-choice demand is "Hands off my ovaries," not "You take care of it, I'll trust you."

Men getting vaccinated, or having more options for birth control, IS NOT THE SAME AS WOMEN GIVING UP CONTROL. Women could still take the Pill. Women could still get vaccinated for HPV. The "kooky" feminist vision here isn't men taking over control of reproductive health and hygiene - most feminists, you'll recall, have a *tiny* problem with men trying to control women's decisions about their bodies in the abortion debates. Rather, the point is to give men (and the women they have sex with) more options about how to share responsibility for the risk of disease and pregnancy.

If neither partner really trusts the other to be telling the truth (about STD status or being on birth control), then BOTH should have a range of options for protecting themselves - through use of condoms, through being vaccinated for preventable diseases, etc. (Never mind the question of whether it's really such a great idea to have sex, protected or otherwise, with someone you don't trust!)

If partners are in a trusting relationship, then why not give them the options to divide up responsibility and risk as THEY think best, rather than defaulting to everything being a woman's responsibility? As I pointed out in another post, some women CAN'T take hormonal birth control. Smokers aren't supposed to be on the Pill, and neither are women with certain family histories of cancer or heart disease. Sure, there are other options for women who want to control their own fertility (condoms, IUDs, etc), but male hormonal contraceptives could also be a plausible alternative (except that research on the "male Pill" has been underfunded and sidelined, because hey - women will take care of it). You point out that women - feminists - may not want to trust their partners who say they've been vaccinated. But real feminists - the ones who think gender equality could improve life for both women and men - would respond that men should be able to protect themselves, too. Cultural stereotypes aside, it's pretty naive to assume that all women will be 100% truthful about their STD status, just as it's a bit too cynical to assume that all men will lie in order to get sex. (In fact, just this week in Dear Prudence, someone wrote in about her female friend who doesn't disclose having herpes to sexual partners). People of any gender can be irresponsible assholes. They can also be responsible, caring, and trustworthy partners.

Those things scream? Oooh, that I've got to hear!

Berkolate:

If partners are in a trusting relationship, then why not give them the options to divide up responsibility and risk as THEY think best, rather than defaulting to everything being a woman's responsibility?

Getting back to the original question, we are going to have to remember the factual matter at hand and put all the hypothetical considerations aside. The idea of "just" giving girls the HPV vaccine is based on the disproportionate risk that they have from HPV. Then there's the practical fact that it's way too late to provide the vaccine when a woman is a partner in a trusting relationship. Immunity doesn't happen immediately.

A lot of this is BS. In terms of this vaccine, women shouldn't see this as a burden. Personally, I think it's lame that boys aren't vaccinated. Since not all women will get the shot, we guys can't really just assume women will take care of it. What if they chose not to? Then we're still at risk.

And as far as I'm concerned, I wish there was a male birth control. And again I say this because I really don't trust women to take proper care of it.

I think when it comes to personal health and even birth control, a little overkill is a good thing. But I'm also tired of hearing about feminists complaining about getting an unfair share of burdens when really they seem to be getting preferred treatment.

Agamemnon:

A lot of this is BS. In terms of this vaccine, women shouldn't see this as a burden. Personally, I think it's lame that boys aren't vaccinated. Since not all women will get the shot, we guys can't really just assume women will take care of it. What if they chose not to? Then we're still at risk.

And as far as I'm concerned, I wish there was a male birth control. And again I say this because I really don't trust women to take proper care of it.

I think when it comes to personal health and even birth control, a little overkill is a good thing. But I'm also tired of hearing about feminists complaining about getting an unfair share of burdens when really they seem to be getting preferred treatment.

if it's an equal burden then why don't you go and get the shot?

so, feminists are getting preferred treatment, when you should be taking an equal responsibility? explain, i mean, that is, unless you can tell me the shot doesn't work for males biologically. aren't we the ones that are spreading it around so frequently. why deal with the result when we can deal with the source?

and you shouldn't necessarily trust the woman to take care of it. i get very tired of the (albeit few) males in the fray who post about how women take advantage of them. of how she got pregnant on purpose and now he has to pay for it forever. of how she lied about it being his baby, etc...

if men had control of their own reproduction, these things would be a nonissue. the question is, since men have been the majority of scientists throughout history, why have they focused on only the female side of these issues. and this is the point that saletan made. it appears that men would rather shoulder the burden of responsibility and blame to women when it comes to sexual issues. how many times do you hear men blaming women on giving them diseases, for example, when it is a lot easier for women to contract something from a man?

@deduction "the question is, since men have been the majority of scientists throughout history, why have they focused on only the female side of these issues."

A healthy adult female cannot concieve either during her period or while pregnant (and to a lesser extent while breastfeeding). Replicating the hormone levels that put women in that infertile state led to the birth control pill. There is no point in a healthy adult males life that he cannot cause conception.

It's not a lack of research interest, or the gender of the researchers that led to a pill for women and no pill for men, it's biology.

"and this is the point that saletan made."

No, it isn't. Saletan engaged in a little male-bashing as a pander to his audience, thinking no one would call him on it.

Boys don't have to do dishes! That's rich.

i concede the biology point. but note that we manipulate biology all the time. just because it doesn't occur in nature does not mean that we can't consider such possibilities. also, men who have gotten vasectomies can't reproduce and there have been cases of women conceiving during their period or while pregnant.

comportment:

if it's an equal burden then why don't you go and get the shot?

so, feminists are getting preferred treatment, when you should be taking an equal responsibility? explain, i mean, that is, unless you can tell me the shot doesn't work for males biologically. aren't we the ones that are spreading it around so frequently. why deal with the result when we can deal with the source?

Perhaps you misread what I said. I said that both boys and girls should get the shot, I just don't agree with the reasoning that boys should get it because it's somehow unfair to women. I'm saying it's unfair to boys. Heck, if girls don't want the shot and would prefer to leave it up to the boys to decide, that's fine by me, I'd just be surprised to see feminists give that up.

@deduction

I think you missed my point. The female pill was easier to discover as it's replicating a natural state. There is no natural, temporary, infertile state for males.

I find it hard to believe that you think there aren't efforts to discover a male birth control pill, and that permanent, only possibly reversible, surgical sterility is equivalent to the control that hormonal birth control pills offer women.

deduction:

i concede the biology point. but note that we manipulate biology all the time. just because it doesn't occur in nature does not mean that we can't consider such possibilities. also, men who have gotten vasectomies can't reproduce and there have been cases of women conceiving during their period or while pregnant.

If you and your group of scientists discover a male birth control pill, you'll be richer than Crassus. If any drug co. even got a HINT that you had a good development idea on one, you'd have so much money falling on you, you'd suffocate under the weight of it.

That would be the biggest moneymaker the world has seen in years. There's therefore NO super conspiracy to prevent male birth control, because for each puritan conspirator that showed up to the E.V.I.L. meeting to discuss it, there'd be 5000 ravenous profiteers looking to patent it.

LOL, want to do a fun experiment? Go online and find a piece of Harvard or Duke stationery, look at the university's faculty and find a GU researcher, and write a letter as if you were the doc saying you've made a breakthrough in male birth control and are looking for funding to get it to market. Send it to Glaxco, Plough, etc. with your phone number as the return, and see how long it takes them to get back to you. I bet you won't have to wait long -- and neither would anyone who really DID develop something along these lines.

Fezzik:

Boys don't have to do dishes! That's rich.

Ask any married man that ever wanted to get laid about that one.

From the movie "Chicago". "You take care of Mama, and she'll take care of you."