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Geeks and Greeks.
by Havelock
+4 Reply

Well, this place has been kind of quiet lately, hasn’t it? (Well, aside from snippets of dialog from that silly-looking new Ricky Gervais film, The Invention of Lying. Has anyone else had that banner ad suddenly decide to start spouting dialog from the film all by itself at odd times over the last couple of days? It scared the hell out of me the first time it did that. The following twenty or so times were merely annoying.) Times are tough all over, I guess. And a number of the old regulars aren’t around much anymore for whatever reason. So, in the interest of fostering some activity (and grinding some reliable axes), here are a few rambling but not wholly unconnected thoughts.

We’ve had several discussion related to the notion of consent in the context of various types of sexual activity. That issue came up in a recent Slate article: Smeary Lines: The lesson we're not learning from the Hofstra date rape that wasn't. The article was mildly interesting – the cautionary tale of a late-night after-party encounter between five young men and one young lady in a men’s bathroom. The encounter was first alleged to be rape and then fairly conclusively proven not to be rape (as defined in the statutes) when a video of the events surfaced. It was a video recorded by one of the young men with his cell phone – without the knowledge of the young lady involved, obviously. The article talks about what lessons ought to be learned (conspicuously absent lesson: always assume these days that a video or pictures might exist when an event involves witnesses).

More interesting I thought was the discussion in the associated Jurisprudence Fray. Folks had a lot to say, but one frequently recurring theme (expressed mostly by men) focused on how truly awful a false or even a non-provable accusation of rape is, what harm it does to the accused. Right along with that went the notion that a woman has to accept some responsibility, maybe a lot of responsibility for the situations she puts herself in. A lot of these folks also opined that we shouldn’t be too quick to judge the intentions or the actions of a man (or a woman) involved in these sorts of things, we can’t always know who consents to what and when and why with great certainty, let’s give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and so on. Quite interesting...

More evidence, I’d say, that if people can see themselves in a given situation then they’re much more likely to be sympathetic to those involved. As if more evidence was needed.

Anyway, both the article and the discussion piqued my interest in university conduct codes related to sexual activity. As a result, I did a little research into the standards that most universities impose – standards that by design exceed what the law typically requires. And in so doing I came across a hitherto unfamiliar term: Effective Consent. Here’s a typical definition: Effective Consent is informed, freely and actively given, and consists of mutually understandable words or actions [emphasis added] indicating a willingness to engage in mutually agreed-upon sexual activity. Of course there are paragraphs following that strive to define “freely” and “actively” and that attempt to provide guidelines to help determine when an individual is inherently incapable of offering effective consent. That’s to be expected.

But one take-home lesson is that even the wary guardians of our avowedly safe, diverse, respectful, and responsible communities of higher education have recognized the commonsensical reality that consent may be signified by mutually-understandable actions rather than words.

Yet more evidence, I’d say...

Okay, separate (but related) topic... There was another recent article on Slate about love, mostly in old Athens, entitled Ancient Greek Lessons About Gay Marriage: The dizzying spectrum of same-sex relationships. The article is a book review (The Greeks and Greek Love: A Bold New Exploration of the Ancient World by James Davidson) actually. The review tends to ramble a bit and the title doesn’t much reflect the main thrust of either the review or the book as far as I can tell. That’s unfortunate. But the book looks interesting; its main thesis seems to be that there were actually quite a range of socially-acceptable same-sex relationships sanctioned to one degree or another in ancient Greece and it’s easy to misconstrue them by seeing them through the prism of our own time and culture. It’s also been too often assumed that what was accepted during a particular era in Athens, for example, was somehow archetypal. The reality, the author says, was more complex and harder to pigeonhole.

It’s a valuable and not-too-shocking point. Too bad it was mostly lost in the related discussion on the Books Fray. Nothing much of note there, for the most part... It’s mostly a weird amalgam of posts by same-sex marriage opponents and proponents who are both offended by the notion that we might have anything to learn from ancient Greek boy lovers intermingled with the occasional post offering a vague or tendentious reading of history and/or the evolution of sexual mores. Plainly a lot of these posters either didn’t read the article at all or else they didn’t read it very carefully.

But never mind all of that. I was particularly intrigued by the following passage from the review:

Davidson brilliantly shows that this interpretation [The Athenians were obsessed with anal sex, which they saw as an act of domination and humiliation] is largely a projection on the part of modern historians, who have been reluctant to imagine a world where gay relationships could be expressions of love, affection, and appreciation, rather than deeply skewed power arrangements.

That rang a bell. One does often hear general complaints about “deeply skewed power arrangements” in quite a lot of discussions about various unconventional sexual relationships. I’d never thought too much about that objection being somewhat reflexive and easily triggered by a wide range of topics, but maybe it is. I hadn’t much considered that it might serve as a broad foundation for other objections, but maybe it does. Maybe among other things it’s a reliable rationalization for folks who’re confronted by someone whose affections are just too alien to be understandable. Now I’m certainly not suggesting that the objection is never valid, but oftentimes it is awfully convenient. “Those freakazoids can’t possibly feel what I feel, so those relationships must be based on something different than mine. Power, predation, unbridled hedonism, something...

Yet more evidence, I’d say...

Cheers.
Re: Geeks and Greeks.
by tsedek

You might try mozilla firefox for your browser. Has an excellent ad block add-on, so I don't get nasty pop-ups or any ads at all.

As for the regulars, in my case I have gotten on facebook and it is fulfilling some of my needs. Has pictures and easier to post links and youtubes, but length of written pieces is limited, so that is a drawback to top posts.

Re: Geeks and Greeks.
by white light

It's all to do with balance, isn't it ? :) xxxx

Yer it is a bit quiet but never mind :) there are still nice people here, others have it seams found other play mates other play grounds or are just plain snoozing :)

Re: Geeks and Greeks.
by konark_girl
Hmmm, for some reason I don't find Facebook that satisfying. Too little interaction -- you post some random thing and a couple of people like it and you get a response or two, but never have managed to get a 'discussion' going (maybe because my facebook friends all tend to be pleasantly flaky New Agey dancer types......they all have short attention spans :)).
Re: Geeks and Greeks.
by konark_girl

You know, I've had debates with my friends about 'what is consent' for years now without getting much of an answer. I think in Western society today (at least in USA) too much onus is placed on the guy to show that he obtained consent. But -- and of course, this is my privilege as a woman -- I think that's easier to live with than societies where its almost impossible for a woman to prove rape even when she is truly and violently raped.

That Jodie Foster movie 'Accused' -- I don't think anyone can doubt that she was raped. However, in India for sure, the fact that she (a) went into that bar dressed provocatively, and (b) she flirted and danced with her eventual rapists -- would probably constitute sufficient grounds for a half decent lawyer to show that she was a willing participant.

Re: Geeks and Greeks.
by tsedek

konark_girl:
Hmmm, for some reason I don't find Facebook that satisfying. Too little interaction -- you post some random thing and a couple of people like it and you get a response or two, but never have managed to get a 'discussion' going (maybe because my facebook friends all tend to be pleasantly flaky New Agey dancer types......they all have short attention spans :)).

Drop in on mine sometime. We have some interesting discussions on health care, among other things. I post the same issues there as here, as I lack the social chatter gene, and have found a few total strangers, as well as Tom_Paine, NOAB, and 2Witnesses from here. I'm listed as Jim F----. Couldn't find you.

Re: Geeks and Greeks.
by white light

It makes me jump every time :) I am pleased for us that he has crossed 'The Pond' but so sorry for you. xxxx

As for rape vs consent. An old school friend of my daughters was accused of rape last year. It didn't go to trial because he got cold feet and pleaded guilty to a lesser charge but ...... they had both been drinking idiotic amounts of Tequila where both ill and crashed in/on the same bed ....wether his version is true or not, I don't really care ( he stayed with me whilst on parol and I am sick of the whole silly affair) but, in principal ..... he said that they had both fallen asleep then when they woke up she started wiggling her bum into him and so on, he started stroking her and so on, neither said a word but by her movements she was, said J..... 'consenting'. Was she? She said that she was asleep btw.

I was listening to a woman, on the radio the other day, who had lived through a horribly abusive childhood, she was in many ways though, arguing against much of what the Fem movement have 'achieved', saying that the balance is now far too skewif, in that men have now become redundent to a large extent. I think that she is right in some ways but that, as is always so, the scales have been tipped too far on either side, are they now beginning to find a proper balance maybe ? These sort of misty rape cases are important I think, in their way. I would not have gone to the police though, whether he had or hadn't. This is what my generation and those before us suffered for ?! so that girls can get drunk as skunks and cry rape when found in bed with the 'wrong' fella? or so that respect, even though at times it is abused on both 'sides', is bought back onto all being on an equal footing . That some men are unfairly accused of rape and assault now is as unfair as was so for women who were scorned ( at best ) for being sullied in the not so distant past. I do feel sorry for young shy men though, how do they dare to 'take' their first kiss ? :)

The Greeks and love :) since spirit was masculine and phyche was feminine and the ultimate goal was their merging into one, well ....... ''The art of life consisted for them ( the Greeks) in giving every god his due. These dues were various. Thus, Appollo's due was very different from the debt a man owed to Dionysus ....But everone was owed and, in its proper time and season, must be acknowledged. No god must be cheated and none overpaid.' ....Aldous Huxley

Re: Geeks and Greeks.
by kgswiger
If anyone's interested, mine is Kevin Swiger. Not a lot going on.
Re: Geeks and Greeks.
by kgswiger

When I went back to college for my BS, I had a female friend I was quite close to. We weren't dating, or anything like that, just friends. After we'd been friends for a little over 18 months (and I'm talking hanging out together pretty much all the time), we went out drinking together. We'd been drunk in each other's company before, but those times, she was always with her boyfriend, if she had one, and I was always with my girlfriend, if I had one.

This was the first time neither of us was dating someone else, and it was with other friends. At some point, we ended up back at her place, and had a few more drinks. Then, one of us kissed the other, and things evolved pretty much as you probably expect.

The next morning, things were a little awkward. Later that day, a feminazi* friend of hers convinced her it was date rape. The local campus authorities got involved, and I went through a little piece of Hell, until she recanted. We stayed friends for another 20 years.

Re: Geeks and Greeks.
by white light

I saw the film in europe with a Belgique friend ..... I was horrified when he said that it was not rape !!!! I think even now you would be surprised to find how many people, if they were honest, believe that still.

I don't know about America but here it seems all so unbalanced again, just as we were beginning to see the light, just as we seemed to be going along the right path. Because of such poor education now it feels as though we are going backwards, the young have such a topsie turvey morality now, a sort of jungle morality. Maybe I am just getting old ? :)

Re: Geeks and Greeks.
by white light
You poor thing. xxxxx
Re: Geeks and Greeks.
by kgswiger

I forgot the * in the previous post. That's what happens when you have the flu.

I use the term feminazi not for your average feminist, but for those feminists who dislike both men and those women who don't think men are inherently scum. Yes, I'm a neanderthal, but if your idea of feminism is thinking women should be free to make their own choices, with only those restrictions that apply to all of us, then I guess I'm a feminist neanderthal.

Re: Geeks and Greeks.
by kgswiger

Thanks, wl. :)

Even after all this time, we have no idea who started things, or exactly who got naked first. I might have ended up in jail, if rug burned knees hadn't prompted her memory of being on top.

Re: Geeks and Greeks.
by happyatheist

Have you got the flu again??? Didn't you have it last year about this time too? You've been sick quite a bit lately, haven't you? Lots of emotional turmoil...that'll take the wind out of you, that's for sure. (I got the flu last year - forgot to get my shot with the move and all. I had something a few months ago that I'm just going to assume was the swine flu because I was sick as a dog for 6 weeks and I had all the symptoms (and then some!). I got my regular flu shot Tues., so I'm hoping I can make to the 2 weeks before I get my immunity without getting the flu! Fingers crossed.)

I'll be sending you psychic chicken soup - I've been getting into this psychic thing lately. I read somewhere that you should write down the 100 qualities you would most appreciate in a friend/partner/date in order to draw such a person into your life. So I did it for fun and therapy (my shrink thought it was a delightful and helpful exercise) and I posted it to my blog. Next thing I know some stranger is perusing my blog and stops to say "hi" and before you know it we're off on a date because he only lives 3 hours away. Well, needless to say, things have been going along OK so far...except he's dragging me off to a football game this weekend. I'm not much of a sports fan (OK, I'm not a sports fan at all), but, I figured I'd give it a shot since I've been dragging him off to art museums for the past 6 weeks. Anyway, you never know, maybe the psychic chicken soup will work as well. If not, I can just give you the recipe. ;)

And most of us pretty much know you're a feminist neanderthal. I tried to look you up on facebook to see if you really do look like Santa with scars. There's more than one of you, ya know. The first 2 didn't look like Santa, so I gave up (because I didn't want to have to sift through 500 other people with your last name and I'm not on facebook so I can't do real searches). I'll just keep imagining you the way I always have...sexy Santa with scars. :D

Re: Geeks and Greeks.
by happyatheist
At the time, I lived about 20 miles away from where that happened and a lot of people there didn't think it was rape either, neither at the time it happened nor even years later. (My college campuses were in New Bedford, MA and in North Dartmouth, so I spent a lot of time in New Bedford. It's not a very nice city, definitely not a safe place for a young woman alone. I got propositioned and accosted numerous times heading into class at 8 am. I mean, really, wtf??? If I was there after dark, I never walked to my car alone.)
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