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Mike Moore---we need him
by The Real RML
+2/-1 Reply

Anyone who has honestly studied Marx knows that the father of communism thought the USA was the best chance his ideas had for catching on. The gilded age had begun in the USA with the industrial revolution and the serious lack of social justice was ever present in the lower ranks of America.

The Bolshevicks were an unexpected but welcome suprise to Marx. It wasnt an industrial nation as he had predicted but rather the agrarian world of Russia. Not that the rules Marx had outlined really needed to have industrial rather than agrarian-the reality was the same--the rich were super rich and super powerful and most of the population was seriously poor and oppressed.

The USA did have an up and coming communist party at the time too..and we soon had seen serious excess of capitalism, force millions into poverty, left a visible wasteland no one could deny in the undeniable wreckage of the Great Depression.

What the USA has even today is something Marx hadnt counted on--a middle class. A place where those of us not seeking a mansion and a yacht can go with something more than poverty level income but nothing approximating a wealthy capitalist. The middle class has long been the barrier to the Marx predictions-something achievable to most with a work ethic and something less than a complete grounding for those who lose a fortune.

Mike Moore is not playing the role of Chicken Little though. He is right about the actions of many in capitalisms royalty going to near criminal lengths and that excess has been a real problem even as thousands of workers each week join the ranks of the unemployed, the uninsured, and even the homeless. Were the trend to reach epidemic levels, Marx would be sitting up in his grave and shouting "see I told you so" because he thought the capitalism model had only winners and losers rather than anything like a middle class.

Moore is the squeaky wheel we need to oil....the warning light that annoys you but eventually makes you take the car in for a tuneup before worse things happen. No one argues that a lot of what Moore points out is true regardless of the extreme conclusions he may come to. Sure, Moore is as white as the subject is black sometimes and neither will admit that sometimes its really a gray area.

But Moore is right. Like it or not, the problems he addresses are real enough. Sure, some of his answers and conclusions arent. But pointing out symptoms doesnt require a doctor...and Moore is excellent at shining a light on things we need to fix.

Does anyone really need to have millions or billions in income? Does anyone really need six or more homes, ten or more cars, etc? To Moores point, many Americans are struggling month to month to have a roof and three meals while the upper class is wondering which vacation home to go to this weekend......the symptoms are real.

Marx of course would say that the starving masses can and should rise up and take down the upper classes in a fit of anger over the discrepency in their lifestyles....but when properly working capitalism does have an answer--the middle class. Its true that many companies are screwing their workers more and more often and that outsourcing, illegal labor, and other issues are making the issues become more and more hard to ignore. Like Moore or not, the symptoms are there and he is reminding us of it.

Whether we choose to bring the car in for a tune up or simply see if Marx was right is up to the American corporate leadership.

Re: Mike Moore---we need him
by TexasPete

RML,

Now I know where you are coming from...you are a card toting communist aren't you? You know Obama is a Marxist don't you. And you don't think there is anything that is terribly WRONG about Marxist Communism do you?

I'll let your post speak for its-self Moore is truly a left wing nut job with absolutely no credibility and it seems you are one of his loyal deciples. (I know religion is the opiate of the people garbage but it sure sounds like Marx is a religion for Atheists)

Re: Mike Moore---we need him
by benhon3

Tex,

That's not what I got from the post. There's such a thing as reaping the rewards for your labor, and then there's just plain greed on the backs of people. It is irresponsible to pay someone $2/day in some Asian sweatshop that will afford that person only a meal. It is plain greed to ship manufacturing jobs overseas for that $2/day, putting Americans out of work and allowing our cities to crumble and rot. There is no diginity or honor owed to those people who have the power to turn the screws to make this sort of thing happen.

Most people know Communism is a failed policy. Resolving exploitation of labor, the erosion of the middle class doesn't call for a remedy such as Communism. It does call however for responsibility and looking long term at the destruction greed has wrought.

Re: Mike Moore---we need him
by Oscar_Delta
TexasPete:

RML,

Now I know where you are coming from...you are a card toting communist aren't you? You know Obama is a Marxist don't you. And you don't think there is anything that is terribly WRONG about Marxist Communism do you?

I'll let your post speak for its-self Moore is truly a left wing nut job with absolutely no credibility and it seems you are one of his loyal deciples. (I know religion is the opiate of the people garbage but it sure sounds like Marx is a religion for Atheists)

If Moore is truly a "left wing nut job with no credibility", then what do you call a person who labels another individual (who he, presumably, doesn't even know) a "card toting communist"? Is that the voice of credibility that serious people ought to be listening to?

Re: Mike Moore---we need him
by Scott C. Clark

Seriously Tex, you're a huge douche. Somebody takes the time to make a reasoned critique and come up with a brilliant analogy of Moore as the "check engine light", while pointing out that yes, Moore is far from perfect -- and you show up with the same tired, fucked-out tripe that every other right wing dipshit recites ad-nauseum. "Disciple, Marxist, Socialist, Nazi, blah blah blah."

Everyone says politics has gotten so coarse, and well, it has -- but it started on the Right. You assholes are wholly responsible for it. But you aren't the only ones who can play that game, so how's this for coarse, catch AIDS and die you stupid piece of shit.

Sincerely,

All thoughtful Americans who are tired of your team's bullshit.

Re: Mike Moore---we need him
by PeaceInAPod
No, not a disciple, a "deciple." If you're going to insult whingeing windbags, you've got to recite their rhetoric as well as they have. ;)
Re: Mike Moore---we need him
by TexasPete
Oscar_Delta:
TexasPete:

RML,

Now I know where you are coming from...you are a card toting communist aren't you? You know Obama is a Marxist don't you. And you don't think there is anything that is terribly WRONG about Marxist Communism do you?

I'll let your post speak for its-self Moore is truly a left wing nut job with absolutely no credibility and it seems you are one of his loyal deciples. (I know religion is the opiate of the people garbage but it sure sounds like Marx is a religion for Atheists)

If Moore is truly a "left wing nut job with no credibility", then what do you call a person who labels another individual (who he, presumably, doesn't even know) a "card toting communist"? Is that the voice of credibility that serious people ought to be listening to?

RML and I have discussions for months I think this post of his explains many things about him that have made it difficult to exchange Ideas.....His obvious support for Marxist ideas in his post positioned him much farther left than I previously thought.
Re: Mike Moore---we need him
by The Real RML

Gee Tex,

I thought I made a damn good pro capitalism argument--makes sense as I am very much in favor of capitalism termpered by the safety nets provided by SOME socialism. I believe that without things like unemployment and Medicaid/Medicare we would be living in a third world country and like France the guillotine would come back into fashion when certain people on Wall Street abscond with the public trust.....

Even Moore isnt a true communist--he makes his money via true capitalism in fact. A communist would surrender his earnings to the state and take back what the state feels he needs. Communism in its pure form is shared labor and shared reward...a nice theory but even an idiot knows that not everyone does equal amounts of labor. Capitalism rewards one for superior training, superior productivity, and superior effort......BUT

Capitalism is equally capable of rewarding someone for someone elses superior efforts AND allows for promotion based on croneyism, family, friends, etc....it is easily corrupted without safeguards too. It is far from perfect.

Moore has clearly got a soft spot for the underdogs in american society and in particular the underdogs who arent there by choice...some are victims of shootings, some victims of layoffs, some victims of our messed up healthcare system, etc.....but he is hardly trying to take your classic welfare family and champion their cause underserved. Before you call the guy names see his movies and see what he is about.

Dont worry Pete, I am no more a card carrying communist then you are a gun totating sister raping red neck........

Re: Mike Moore---we need him
by TexasPete
Scott C. Clark:

Seriously Tex, you're a huge douche.

I have a pretty thick skin I can handle a douchebag calling me a douche.

Somebody takes the time to make a reasoned critique and come up with a brilliant analogy of Moore as the "check engine light", while pointing out that yes, Moore is far from perfect -- and you show up with the same tired, fucked-out tripe that every other right wing dipshit recites ad-nauseum. "

I guess you have never posted with RML before?

Disciple, Marxist, Socialist, Nazi, blah blah blah."

When Did I say Socialist or Nazi in this thread? RML obviously supports Marx's ideas did you read his post? It is the rant of a Marx Disiple.

Everyone says politics has gotten so coarse, and well, it has -- but it started on the Right.

We tried being nice thru Reagan, Bush 41 & Bush 42. Now we play the Democrats game and we are beginning to take back ground. We tried the high road and it failed now we are taking off the gloves.

You assholes are wholly responsible for it. But you aren't the only ones who can play that game, so how's this for coarse, catch AIDS and die you stupid piece of shit.

Yup you sure beat me inthe war of ideas there.....LOLAY

Sincerely,

All thoughtful Americans who are tired of your team's bullshit.

You may be an American but you are hardly thoughtful or a representative of "Thoughtful Americans" thanks and play again some time! ROTFLAY

Re: Mike Moore---we need him
by TexasPete

Pretty much everything else you said we have been over I know where you stand. The following is on subject and I'll adress it:

Moore has clearly got a soft spot for the underdogs in american society and in particular the underdogs who arent there by choice.

If so why does he distort facts beyond recognition and tell out right lies to make his point. If he wanted people to take him seriously he should act like he is serious. His methodology is to try and get a rise out of people he disagrees with that really dosnet work for a documentary.

..some are victims of shootings,

Bowling for Columbine was full of duistorted half-thruths and out right lies.

some victims of layoffs, some victims of our messed up healthcare system, etc.

Cuba has better care than us??? Even he did not beleive that one.

....but he is hardly trying to take your classic welfare family and champion their cause underserved. Before you call the guy names see his movies and see what he is about.

I saw enough of most of them to know there was no truth in them I saw Bowling for Columbine all the way through. I think "An American Tale" pegged Moore for what he really is and at least they did it with parod and sarcasm it was Quite entertaining.

Re: Mike Moore---we need him
by TexasPete
BTW a true redneck would never commit incest. I hadn't been a redneck since I went to college I worked a summer doing road work. If you saw me then you would know what a real redneck is!
Re: Mike Moore---we need him
by Loki's Curse

Pete, I've given up on you several times, but here I am again. Go back through this thread and read all of YOUR posts. Is there ONE INSTANCE where you addressed any of RML's points? He made several, enough that anybody could find something to challenge.

But no, you roll out the same old commie nonsense. Why do you do that? Do you intend to convince anyone? Do you point out errors in thinking? Or do you somehow get off on just trying to insult people?

Long live the Empire!

benhon3
by ckone
The left would tell you its better for that asian to have no job and starve.
Re: Mike Moore---we need him
by mdc8k
benhon3:

Tex,

That's not what I got from the post. There's such a thing as reaping the rewards for your labor, and then there's just plain greed on the backs of people. It is irresponsible to pay someone $2/day in some Asian sweatshop that will afford that person only a meal. It is plain greed to ship manufacturing jobs overseas for that $2/day, putting Americans out of work and allowing our cities to crumble and rot.

Why, exactly, is that greedy or bad? If the $2 a day affords that person the only meal he or she is going to get that day, it seems that both sides are better off. Lower wage costs = cheaper products, and cheaper products lead to an increase in the real wages of those purchasing the products.

As for the effect on American cities, why do Americans working in closed factories have an inalienable right to those jobs? If someone is willing to do the work for less, why shouldn't they be able to? And why do the interests of one set of American workers outweigh the interests in other workers of being able to buy cheaper products?

Re: benhon3
by mike_in_nm

These are our choices? Either someone is unemployed in our country or unemployed in another country? That's a false dichotomy and you know it.

The unions and the left are not against all globalization. They are against globalization that allow companies to export jobs to places where workers are not provided with basic guarantees of a fair wage and on the job safety and where the environment is not protected. US companies should not be able to avoid labor and environmental regulations by doing production in a third world country. Allow that sort of activity is a race to the bottom. That sort of activity is just the sort of thing that gives capitalism its bad name.

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