.... as "feminists."

The movie Mona Lisa Smile actually portrays this thought fairly well. Some people are exposed to self-identified "feminists" who choose to believe that to be a feminist you must want a career outside of the home. You must want to "make" something of your life as men have for centuries. Some people genuinely WANT to be the stay at home partner. Many people have been made to feel that if you genuinely want that role you are betraying the trust of others who don't.

If being a feminist means that I get to decide what behaviors or life choices are "appropriate" ones for any segment of the population, then I'm not a feminist. If being a feminist means that I believe that there should be equal opportunity based on empirically measured qualifications (can lift 50 lbs repeatedly without injury, has a Ph.D. is nuclear physics, etc.) then I most assuredly AM a feminist. And a civil rights activist too, with a similar definition.

I do agree, mostly, with Prudie's advice to the woman with the fiance, though.

Jessica Valenti of www.feministing.com wrote a book called "Full Frontal Feminism" that helps define feminism for women. It's very straight forward and to the point and I highly recommend it to anyone who looks me in the eye and says, "I'm not a feminist but..." I always reply, "Yes. You are."

I have a bumper sticker that reads, "Feminism is the radical notion that women are people." My husband bought it for me.

Thanks for the recommend, Stephanie. I love that bumper sticker, and put in my whole explanation because I have run into women in my lifetime who have told me that I'm not a feminist because I'd much rather be a stay-at-home partner. I believe that women are people, and I believe that people should be judged on who they are/what they can do, not how their skin is stretched/tinted/etc.

I don't care if you stay home or not. What bothers me is the dependent position that some stay-at-home wives are in.

Like most of us, I've seen, up close and personal, what happens to women and children when they lose the primary breadwinner (through death as well as divorce) and the women aren't equipped to earn a living. I also know all about life in an abusive household when the woman has no confidence in her ability to support herself and her children and is too afraid of poverty to leave.

These things have convinced me that the first obligation of every woman is to acquire sufficient education or training and experience to support herself. If she *then* chooses to be a stay-at-home wife and mother, fine.

(By the way--Ideally, both men and women should be required to live on their own and look after their own needs before they can cohabit or reproduce!)

And Spinning that is why I specifically say "want," because I fully recognize that being trapped due to lack of education or skill set is not the same as desiring that lifestyle.

And I fully agree that both men and women should be required to live on their own and look after their own needs before they can cohabit or reproduce. I think that any good parent would do their best to insure that their children are raised understanding this prior to leaving home/getting involved in romantic relationships.

I come from an unusual home, in that my father was raised well by his grandmother (back in the 50's and 60's) to be fully self-sufficient (knows how to cook and clean well, etc.) and my mother was also raised to be fully self-sufficient, so I fully expect any adult to be able to do their own laundry, fix meals for themselves (even simple ones like frozen/canned vegetables, grilled meat, and bread or potatoes), and tidy up after themselves.

Thank you, Spinning. You took the words right out of my mouth. I fought to be independent of my parents; I can't turn around and hitch my wagon to a man. Have something to bring to the table. If he goes down (witness this recession), you have to be able to hold the both of you up.

Unfortunately, I have known young women who are either overly optimistic or somewhat lacking in foresight and do choose that lifestyle "freely" without a backup plan. The line that made me cringe came from a high school kid who told me, "I don't need to do well in school--my husband will take care of me." In a case like that, I admit to being pushy and unpleasant.:-)

But even in a case like that, Spinning, would you tell them that they are not feminists, even if they believe in the right of all humans to be treated equally, on their merits?

I mean, granted, they need an education on the way the real world works, but telling them that they aren't feminists?? That's the part I was getting at. Not the making sure that they are aware of the options. Not even the making sure that they are aware that the real world may offer them a world of hurt if they approach it that naively, but rather that the mere thought of feeling that way for themselves precludes them from being feminists.

Now, to be clear, I'm a working stiff, because I haven't found a person that cares deeply about me (number one) and feels that having a stay-at-home partner would be a good fit for their vision of life (number two). So... I keep plugging away wondering if I should figure out if there is a career path that will do more than just pay the bills (barely) that I am interested in enough to make the higher education for it worth it, and not being convinced yet that the student loans would be worth it. Each passing year I do miss the classroom more, though, so I'm sure sooner or later I'll wind up behind the classroom desk again.

I say, stay-at-homers can call themselves feminists, depending on the spirit with which they do it.

Not so feminist: "I choose a traditional role for women and I think that's the only morally right thing, and besides, men make more money so why shouldn't I? It's my choice, and [cliche cliche cliche] feminism's all about choices, right?"

More feminist: "I am choosing to be a stay-at-home partner because that's the life I want. I know it's a potentially temporary economic privilege, I know that I will be economically more vulnerable if my husband dies or if we divorce. However, despite the fact that I don't earn income, I assert myself as an equal partner in my marriage, asserting that homemaking has a value commensurate with paid work, and furthermore I don't let my husband call women bitches like that LW's fiance."

Feminism itself has room for almost all women who are sincere and thoughtful about the rights and welfare of women, as individuals AND as a group.

Yes, I would tell them they're not feminists. (Not that they'd care.) I was born in the '50s, when their attitude was the norm. Women who assign themselves a child's role, where the husband "takes care of" the wife, are decidedly not feminists. A woman can be a stay-at-home wife without that mind-set. She can be an equal partner without bringing in a paycheck. But that's not what I'm hearing in "I don't have to take care of myself because my husband will."

I think you could have called Elizabeth Cady Stanton both a feminist and a stay at home mom. Where would we be without her being the resource for people like Lucretia Mott and Susan B Anthony?

Spinning, not to belabor the point, but I guess I just don't understand why a woman would have to have the same attitude for herself as she may have for the rest of society to be a feminist.

I mean these same girls who are choosing that role for themselves may firmly believe that people are people are people and women should not be treated differently from men.

My understanding of what feminism is, at the core, is the belief that people are people are people and should be judge individually on their own merits.

If that IS the core defining characteristic of feminism, what does an individual's personal choices or motivations have to do with it, as long as their belief, deep down, is that people are people are people and should be judged individually on their own merits?

MLibbyDP:

. Some people are exposed to self-identified "feminists" who choose to believe that to be a feminist you must want a career outside of the home. You must want to "make" something of your life as men have for centuries.

Whoa - you gotta know you were gonna get nailed for that one. What makes you think a woman who stays home to raise a family isn't making something of herself?

Note the quotation marks. I'm stating what I was told as a younger woman that leaves me leery of straight up lumping myself in with all women who self-identify as feminists.

On a somewhat related note: I've had "Sister Suffragette" stuck in my head since I first read this column yesterday. You know, the song from Mary Poppins. I want to march up and down the halls here at work swinging my arms widely.