Dear Fraysters,

Like most of you, I felt confused by LW #2's belief that she could recover from her grandfather's abuse through "forgiveness." I was even more confused by the fact that her therapist, the authors of all those self-help books, and even many former abuse victims on the Fray advocated forgiveness (I wasn't confused by the pastor doing so, for reasons that are probably obvious). What do you accomplish by forgiving someone who hasn't even shown genuine contrition - leaving aside the issue of how you tell it's genuine anyway - after they've done something so horrible to you, especially when they might do it again to someone else? You don't become a survivor that way. You stay a victim.

But I've been thinking about it, and I sort of understand why many abuse victims choose to forgive instead of calling out the perpetrators and enablers of abuse. Make no mistake, I think calling out is still the right way to go: I just have a different perspective on forgiveness now. It's a long explanation. Please bear with me.

Abusers can't do what they do without making their victims feel helpless. In addition, the abuser often (maybe always?) makes the victim think that the abuse is his or her own fault. I admit I'm not clear on that: maybe the feeling of responsibility is a kind of aftereffect, something they get when they understand that what happened to them is wrong and they read between the lines, or hear outright, that other people can't understand why they didn't tell someone, or why they let themselves be treated that way.

In any case, they are left feeling helpless against the abuse and at the same time responsible for it, even long after the actual abuse has stopped. One would think that the next logical step is to reassert control by calling out one's abuser(s) and those who have enabled them. And some former victims do just that - good for them, I say. But as one Frayster commenting on LW #2's letter pointed out, it's extremely difficult to do that, because since it upsets the status quo in your family or community or what have you, everyone is going to do everything they can to make you be quiet so the unpleasantness can go away.

A lot of people don't have the inner strength to win a campaign against abusers and their enablers. If they try and fail - if they're convinced to sit down and shut up - then I bet they're left feeling even more helplessness and despair than they did before. I suspect that many abuse victims know that's a possible outcome: no wonder they're afraid of fighting.

Forgiving yourself and your abuser, though, does not upset the status quo that way. The people who are close to you and the abuser aren't so likely to fight you on it (maybe a couple of them will, but the majority won't). And in a sense, the ability to offer forgiveness is power, especially if you look at it from a Christian perspective. (Full disclosure: I'm Jewish.) If you feel that you can forgive the person who wronged you, then you feel that you have a kind of power over them, and over yourself. You prove that you are a better person than your abuser, and a more powerful person, by forgiving him.

It's not anything like justice and I still don't think it makes you a survivor. But maybe it makes you feel a little less screwed up inside. Maybe forgiveness can be a kind of interim stage between victim and survivor: it helps you recover enough that you can find your way to a position of true strength, and then call out your abuser, ignore the shushing of the enablers, cut off contact, take them to court, whatever.

I hope it's an interim stage, because it's not enough. If anything can be enough.

I've said my piece. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

I think that's distinctly possible. Good thinking.

For myself, I find forgiveness a way of giving myself permission to ditch the anger and move on. Now, some people really do find resentment or anger a true assist--hey, it beats feeling helpless and distressed!--so I'm not knocking it. It can even be empowering.

But it's a destructive emotion for me (and no doubt others). It sinks me into a very unpleasant rut, in which I find only frustration and depression. If I'm going to waste head space on something that's past, I'm going to use it to try to understand what happened, including the psychology or motivation of the offender, and then trying to let go of it.

Despite some recent posts, forgiving someone doesn't mean a clean slate and the opportunity to offend again. A scorpion stings because of what he is. You can understand that and forgive him without setting yourself up to be stung again.

But don't misunderstand--I'm not telling anyone it's their *duty* to forgive, and if anyone does suggest that, tell 'em to f* off.

I think a lot of the heat around the discussion of forgiveness has to do with different people using the same word to mean different things.

I'm with Spinning, to me forgiveness means "I'm no longer going to allow this to effect me. I'm putting it down and walking away to a healthier life." I think the OPs idea of control fits in very well here.

To others it seems to mean "I think what you did was ok" or "What you did was wrong but I'm going to give you a free pass anyway".

I think there wouldn't be much disagreement at all if people actually spelled out what they meant. I think most people agree that the best response is for the victim to work through the situation until it no longer damages their day to day activities. I think most people would agree that rape / molestation is not ok and should not be forgotten about. The problem comes when people call both these situations 'forgiveness' and expect the other party to understand and agree with them.

Again, good point!

Bookbeast, thank for initiating a sensitive and thoughtful discussion. There is much food for thought in your post.

I realize Susan puts her finger on the underlying issue in the preceding discussion when she points out that people have a different definition of forgiveness so that many of us seem to disagree when we basically agree.....

I think the discussion of what forgiveness means is a good one, but I'm kind of flabbergasted by how judgmental the post is about who has "inner strength" and who doesn't, and what the right way and wrong way is for other people to handle trauma.

I don't have a problem with having an opinion about what you think people should do, but declaring that if people don't do what you think they should with their pain, they "stay a victim" is, in my opinion, unkind. I think you need to tread very carefully around other people's traumas, and telling them that you know, even if they don't, that they are doing what they are doing because they lack the "inner strength" to "win" against their abusers is something I think is fine for your interior monologue, but something you should keep to yourself. Frankly, most abuse victims I know could give a damn what someone else thinks "makes you a survivor." They are survivors because they have survived, and telling them they aren't strikes me as very presumptuous. I know the intentions are good, but since you asked for thoughts, I hope you will never, ever say any of this to an abuse survivor again.

alisonjane33:

I hope you will never, ever say any of this to an abuse survivor again.

And this is the other reason why those heated discussions get started :P The OP didn't say that to any abuser survivor in the first place. He made a generic comment on a touchy topic. Some people will see that as a reflection upon themselves or someone they know and get offended as a result. I understand the feelings but that is why people get so heated about something that was pretty innocent to start with.

Of course I'm not the fray monitor and I'm certainly not claiming to be perfect. I'm just at the stage where watching people's responses are more interesting to me than the original point.

Re SusanM: It's "she," but thanks anyway. ;)

I wanted to point out that I'm using the terms "victim" and "survivor" in the mental health sense - see here, also here and here. These terms, and phrases like "victim-to-survivor transition," are common parlance among those who help people recover from psychological trauma - most often due to sexual assault, but other kinds as well.

My reading of LW2 was that the family had used "forgiveness" as a means of victimizing her again. They pushed her into the direction that caused them the least trauma and upset.

I think i have written more on this one LW then i have in the entire 3 years i have been reading the Fray.

I am a survivor of child abuse, and i am a Christian. Look at it from another stand point. When i was 17 (years before i became a Christian) i called out my abuser to my family and got many of the all ready stated responses from different family memebers. This did not help me on my personal road to recovery, i was still a victim at this point. I spent years entrenched in angery hatred and bitter self pity. When i started to learn about Christianity, and yes Jesus, i started looking at life through a different prespective. This was a long road for me, and not an easy one. It came in stages. First, and for the first time since i was 5, i learned to forgive myself for the situation. Then i learned to forgive my family. Finally (and each circumstance is different, i can not say i would have been able to do this if my story had been different) i was able to learn to forgive my abuser.

Remeber, all of you, please, that forgiveness does not = forgetting. I dont talk to him, have dinner with him, call him, allow others to talk to me about him. I will never allow my future children around him, or around the enabalers in my family. There is no hiding this from something to make them feel better.

The forgiveness is personal to ME. I did it as one of the posters above listed, because i had to. I was so enwrapped in anger that it was dragging me down. And i dont think anyone who is not a Christian can fully understand what the Grace of God is capable of doing in a human soult.

NO the Church didnt brow beat me into it. They never even mentioned it.

What you say to an open room, Susan, you say to any abuse survivors who are in it. Of course the comment was made to abuse survivors, as well as everyone else who read it. It's perfectly obvious that there are survivors reading these threads, and you don't have to say "Dear Abuse Survivors:" to be addressing them such that you ought to tread carefully around their feelings. If you would have been happier with the phrase "I hope you never make these kinds of comments in the presence of abuse survivors again," then so be it. The point remains exactly the same.

that it's intensely presumptuous of YOU to assume that we're all delicate, fragile, permanently mentally ill flowers that must never be told anything that might be even vaguely upsetting. Sounds like YOU are presuming that we all want a pat on the head and a "there there dear, don't worry your dainty little head about it".

Not all of us are like that. Most of us are not that fragile. How do I know that? We're still here. That's all the proof you need.

OMG alisonjane, you are going to make me agree with Messy twice in a week. I'm pretty sure that is a sign of the Apocalypse or something.

If someone is so fragile that they cannot stand to read a thoughtful post about the topic of abuse then I sincerely hope that they get help ASAP. As Cary Tennis (Salon) recently said in one of his responses to a letter, that kind of person should most certainly stay out of areas like the Fray where people don't always use kid gloves. But that does not mean that the rest of the world should stop because they are in a delicate place. It does not mean that thoughtful posts on the mentality of survivors and victims should not be written. Difficult topics must be discussed if progress is to be made. People that cannot handle that should, with all respect, make sure to avoid them. It is not on the rest of the world to censor itself to avoid any ill feelings.

Said as another 'survivor' that has no intention of being a damn victim for the rest of my life.

Trying not to be a troll here, but I saw this discussion and wanted to add my perspective as an abuse survivor and a person who has a number of friends/family members who are also abuse survivors. Everyone has a unique way of dealing with trauma and recovery from trauma, so it follows that everyone finds peace in his or her own unique way. Sometimes peace, though, is not true peace. Believe me, I've been there. I've been told before that I should forgive my half-brother (8 years older than me) who molested me for years when I was a child. I believe the only reason people told me to forgive him was because they were uncomfortable with the situation and my justifiable rage at what he had done. If I had "forgiven" him and swept it all back under the rug to make people around me more comfortable, I would likely be severely depressed right now. IMO, without informed forgiveness (the victim realizing the depth of crime and its implications for his or her life), there can be no true letting go of the pain. It will only come back in another form. In a conversation with my brother one day, I realized that if I had children, I couldn't trust him around them because of what he had done to me. I started thinking--if I'm this concerned about my children being around him, what about other people's children? So, at the age of 26, I quit burying my anger, took control of the situation, and told the authorities what my brother had done to me. I never expected a court case to come out of this, but the DA pursued it, and I ended up facing my brother in court. Obviously, every situation is different, and I wouldn't necessarily advise others to do what I did. However, what happened in court when the authorities held my brother accountable was the moment I changed from victim to survivor, the moment that I was finally able to let go. I won't say that I don't have my bad days still--we all do. But my bad days are much more bearable now, and I no longer feel anger towards my brother, now that it's all out in the open. The secrecy and alienation was killing me, as it kills all victims.

red_firefly:

Everyone has a unique way of dealing with trauma and recovery from trauma.....The secrecy and alienation was killing me, as it kills all victims.

Isn't that contradictory?