Is it sad that two soldiers died in Iraq? Certainly. But it was a vehicular accident that could have just as easily happened in Georgia - and would have seemingly carried less weight with Kaplan had this been the case.

As to their personal views on the war, keep in mind that their article was newsworthy precisely because it was unusual. While we should always pay attention to minority viewpoints, we should remain aware that those viewpoints are minority viewpoints unsupported by the bulk of those with similar experiences.

>>we should remain aware that those viewpoints are minority viewpoints unsupported by the bulk of those with similar experiences.

Do you have evidence that their viewpoints were only shared by a minority of soldiers? (BTW, I'm not being flippant, I honestly don't know.) When I read the op-ed, I wondered to myself whether the opinions expressed represented those of a small faction or a majority. They make a pretty concrete claim in saying that Iraqi security forces are helping the insurgents in their time off. I can see why this might be hard to verify, but I'm wondering if anyone has outright denied this.

I guess that you don't understand irony.

You certainly seem convinced that you know the inner thoughts of thousands of soldiers though.

You must be psychic.

Xando wrote: "As to their personal views on the war, keep in mind that their article was newsworthy precisely because it was unusual. While we should always pay attention to minority viewpoints, we should remain aware that those viewpoints are minority viewpoints unsupported by the bulk of those with similar experiences."

You're absolutely positive the editorial was unusual because it was a minority viewpoint and not because it's unusual for soldiers to openly voice their opinions, especially where they differ from the CINC? You're making some mighty big assumptions here.

I am sick to death of people saying this death or that death was an accident and therefore those deaths don't count as deaths caused by war. These people died in a country they shouldn't have been in, on a mission they shouldn't have been asked to do, and that makes their deaths all the more tragic and infinitely more needless.

"You certainly seem convinced that you know the inner thoughts of thousands of soldiers though."

So you think that police officers in Baltimore and Detroit are afraid of being police officers and would rather stay in their precincts all day and hide there like cowards?

No, they are trained to perform a job like military personel are.

Only the minority of cowards thinks otherwise.

You are a complete idiot.

"I am sick to death of people saying this death or that death was an accident and therefore those deaths don't count as deaths caused by war."

I hope you get into a car accident and die, and specify in your will that it must be counted as a murder in your area.

Otherwise, you are a hypocrite.

Having another psychotic break, san? Run to the nearest mental health clinic. Or do you have a private shrink?

Sed nil dulcius est, bene quam munita tenere edita doctrina sapientum templa serena, despicere unde queas alios passimque videre errare atque viam palantis quaerere vitae certaere ingenio, contendere nobilitate noctes atque dies niti praestante labore.

The troopers and their commanders are mostly optimistic/stoic about it AFAICT. I can't imagine they're lovin' those 130 degree days carrying 90 pounds of equipment. OTOH, if you look at the milblogs, there's a huge amount of positive energy. I also follow various embeds,who are mostly very positive about what they see (even if they weren't a year ago.) At long last, things are looking up.

Larry:

The troopers and their commanders are mostly optimistic/stoic about it AFAICT. I can't imagine they're lovin' those 130 degree days carrying 90 pounds of equipment. OTOH, if you look at the milblogs, there's a huge amount of positive energy. I also follow various embeds,who are mostly very positive about what they see (even if they weren't a year ago.) At long last, things are looking up.

You need to read The Explainer. It doesn't get 130 in Iraq. It's sad that the small gains made in Iraq are considered "looking up".

Do the Iraqis have water and electricity? Are the oil fields making a profit? Do they have a functioning government?

You can find all the positive energy you want if that's what you look for. I heard an O6 say this war was a huge mistake. At work. Now that's saying something.

Watching others from above are we? Or is this what you are accusing others of doing?

I don't quite get it. Of course, as a proponent of the war from afar, San, the preceding line of the text fit you quite well:

"Suave etiam belli certamina magna tueri per campos instcucta tua sine parte pericli."

"It’s just as pleasing to witness battle being waged across a plain, when you’re out of danger yourself."

Could have happened in Georgia? Maybe, but our information is coming from a military known to be less than reliable with the truth. Remember Pat Tillman? Why did a truck run off the highway? An attack has neither been mentioned or excluded.

Adrasteia:

You need to read The Explainer. It doesn't get 130 in Iraq.

I need to read lots of things. I wouldn't want to carry that load if it was 72 and breezy.

Adrasteia:

It's sad that the small gains made in Iraq are considered "looking up".

Direction does matter. Last year things were not looking up at all. If Petraeus had reported then, he would have had no ground to stand on.

Adrasteia:

Do the Iraqis have water and electricity? Are the oil fields making a profit? Do they have a functioning government?

No, no, yes, and no. The reason they have no services is because AQI keeps blowing up the infrastructure. That's another reason the Sunnis turned on them. Ramadi now has more electricity than Baghdad for precisely that reason. Most of the government's revenues come from oil. It's hugely profitable. And yes, the national government is a continuing disaster, although that is true of many countries around the world.

Adrasteia:

You can find all the positive energy you want if that's what you look for. I heard an O6 say this war was a huge mistake. At work. Now that's saying something.

I think a lot of people who support continuing think the beginning was a mistake at some level, particularly Cheney and Rumsfield's refusal to believe in and/or prepare for a significant insurgency. Even if al Qaeda had NO presence there before the war, we allowed a major one to develop. We caught a (possibly inevitable) huge break when the sheiks got fed up and have done a great job capitalizing on that.

Adrasteia:

Larry:

The troopers and their commanders are mostly optimistic/stoic about it AFAICT. I can't imagine they're lovin' those 130 degree days carrying 90 pounds of equipment. OTOH, if you look at the milblogs, there's a huge amount of positive energy. I also follow various embeds,who are mostly very positive about what they see (even if they weren't a year ago.) At long last, things are looking up.

You need to read The Explainer. It doesn't get 130 in Iraq. It's sad that the small gains made in Iraq are considered "looking up".

Do the Iraqis have water and electricity? Are the oil fields making a profit? Do they have a functioning government?

You can find all the positive energy you want if that's what you look for. I heard an O6 say this war was a huge mistake. At work. Now that's saying something.

why you pretend that the location of their deaths is insignificant. Surely it's obvious that there's some painful irony in the deaths of two critics of this occupation taking place in Iraq itself, as opposed to Georgia?

Many soldiers have expressed doubts about Iraq. Why do you think that these soldiers' viewpoint was a 'minority" one or that the "bulk" of other soldiers believes differently?

Cheering the deaths of U.S. servicemen, now wishing for the death of a fellow poster?

Seems to me a serious violation of the terms of service here. This poster should be banned, IMO.