Mr. Engber has forgotten an important factor in his argument. We CAN become parents and instill environmentalist values in our children without adding to the population or our carbon footprint, if we adopt.

If more people chose to adopt rather than to go to extreme measures to become pregnant (which always carries the risk of multiple births--even more of a carbon footprint!) this would certainly result in a threefold benefit to our world. 1: smaller population. 2: fewer children around the world raised in orphanages and foster care. 3: if the parents are environmentalists, more votes for green!

International adoption does result in a particular individual (the adoptee) probably increasing her carbon footprint, but in order to be a net gain to the world, her carbon footprint would have to exceed what it would have been in her country of origin PLUS what her parents' biological child would have produced: an unlikely scenario.

So forget the case for a childless society--let's advocate for adoption as a green choice. Millions of children around the world could benefit, now and in the future!

Exactly! My husband and I have been talking about this at length over the last few months (the conversation started after we fell in love with David Attenborough videos- he's very pro population control). We will not be having biological children. If we suddenly go crazy and decide that we must raise a little rugrat it will be via adoption.

It's going to be hard to convince people to stop having babies. Our solution? Making it morally and socially reprehensible. Sneer every time someone says they are pregnant instead of offering congratulations. Be particularly indignant if they've conceived using all those "miracles" of science- in vitro, fertility pills, etc... (which then begs the question- why are all those women infertile? evolution perhaps? are we trying to correct the population control and we don't even know it?)

curse10, please do not adopt any children. Your attitude toward children generally, which is obvious based on your post, will probably cause any children raised by you to be sociopaths. Stifle the feeling that you must raise any "rugrats " at all.

Sneering at pregnant women? That will do a huge amount of good. I can imagine you doing that once too often and being whacked on the side of the head with a purse or diaper bag (in case you sneer at someone pregant again (what a horror).

The last poster is a perfect example of the ubiquitous bias toward children children children which is killing us.

We are overpopulated. We are ALREADY past the human mass which can be supported indefinitely on this fragile blue globe.

What about other creatures? Have they no right to any space here?

Or is this planet to be consumed completely by humans?

There has to be some way to start turning the corner and making some progress against this gonad-juice-fueled myopia which pushes people toward children children children despite the palous state of our home.

I applaud the poster who says "adopt" and I sneer at the woman who says she wouldn't be a good mother. The adopter is the responsible one, who is thinking of others. Those who insist on excessive procreation are the ones who are raising sociopaths.

Jan VanDenBerg

Jan:

If you could bring yourself to stop orating for a moment and actually read the posts you would better understand what I actually said. The poster who talked of adoption said "If we suddenly go crazy and decide that we must raise a little rugrat it will be via adoption." That sentence does not sound like someone who would really be much of a parent, considering that going crazy is the only way he or she could want to raise a child.

This person also has decided to sneer at pregnant women. As I said before, that will hardly do any good for anyone. How many pregnant women, when sneered at, will immediately go and have an abortion? If your answer is greater than zero, you are delusional.

What a bunch of crap. Overpopulated beyond our fragile earth's ability, blah blah blah.

Overpopulation means there are more individuals than the environment can support. Overpopulation means that individuals are dying of hunger causing a population decrease. Is that happening? Nope, only now and then in isolated areas that news people rush to cover.

In fact world population is going up and up and up with no end in sight. We are nowhere near the carrying capacity of earth when it comes to humans. When human population starts to go down, give me a call and we can discuss overpopulation.

Jesus H. Christ. Who said that sneering at pregnant women would encourage abortions? Not me. Nor anyone else on this board. But it's a typical response from people who have their heads in conservative clouds. I love how abortion is the only answer some people on this board can come up with- the usual small thinking found in neo-cons, republicans and the like.

As for my future children being sociopaths. Laughable. At best. But don't you worry your little head about my future adopted children- I'll make sure the little sociopaths stay clear of people of your ilk.

Once more.....

Clearly sneering at pregnant women is not going to make them so distraught about the eco-effects of having a child that they will go out and immediately have an abortion. that was a little exaggeration for effect. But if you read back in this thread, the notion of sneering at people discussing gettting pregnant or being pregnant was brought up as a good way to convince people to have fewer or no children. It has been my experience that sneering at people just makes them defensive, and more convinced that they are right.

Second, you are the one who said that you would adopt a child if you went crazy. Don't put words in my mouth. And frankly, if you think that you have to be crazy to adopt, then no, you are not a good candidate to adopt a child.

Third, why do you assume that anyone who disagrees with you is a conservative (I'm not)? That is the kind of simple-minded self-righteous thinking that is too prevalent in The Fray. Your foaming-at-the-mouth frenzy of hatred for anyone to the right of you makes me wonder about how clearly you think, and that maybe your head is in a far-left cloud.