I remember seeing a couple of years ago a map of the African continent showing the relative frequency of AIDS in its various country, depicted in shades running from deep red for the worst to pink for the not-too-very bad. Except for the countries where Islam is the prevalent religion. They were all a pure white. For them AIDs simply isn't a problem. Zip. Nada. If you want to put what Mormonism has to offer in a nutshell, that's about it. Like Islam, it's a religion that promotes discipline and self-control, something most other Christian demonations seem unable to do. Some don't appear very interested in the subject, and some can't even keep their own clergy in control, which puts them in a rotten position when it comes to recommending how the rest of us ought to live our lives. Mormonism was developed as a pioneer religion and one of its key aims was to promote the survival of its members. Even some of its eccentricities and excesses made excellent sense under those conditions. To the extent that our civilization still requires discipline and self-control for its survival, Mormonism has a great deal to offer. J. Edgar Hoover and Howard Hughes appreciated the value of those people, that's why they like to keep them around themselves. Well, okay, Hoover and Huges were nasty s. o. b.'s and I'm not recommend as role models, but they weren't stupid, and when they were looking for disciplined and dedicated employees, they instinctively gravitated to Mormons as people most likely to get the job done. I'm not a Mormon myself, in fact I'd hate to be one. But I have to admit that they supply more than their fair share of what little backbone this country has left. And I admire the way they take care of each other because they appreciate that the welfare of the individual depends on the welfare of the group. That's something the rest of us folks need to learn.

Wow...

Did they pay you for posting that or are you just that clueless????

The morality thing cracks me up. When I was in high school, if you wanted to get laid you asked a Mormon girl out...

Doc Holiday

I've seen your comments all around this thread and you just seem to be living in an utterly different world than the rest of us. I don't know where you get your vitriolic anti-mormon posture from, but I a lot of what you are saying simply contradicts fact. The recently released PEW study on Mormons in the U.S did find an incredibly high rate of adherence to church principles and religiosity among church members. LDS marriages are empirically more stable with lower rates of divorce or separation, for instance. Targeting our tenants is one thing, but besmirching the character of members by making dubious assertions from your personal experience that contradict all available empirical evidence is absurdity.

"I remember seeing a couple of years ago a map of the African continent showing the relative frequency of AIDS in its various country, depicted in shades running from deep red for the worst to pink for the not-too-very bad. Except for the countries where Islam is the prevalent religion. They were all a pure white. For them AIDs simply isn't a problem. Zip. Nada."

Well, yeah, duh. Also, countries where they chop off your hands for stealing will have lower theft rates, and well all pretty much agree that theft is bad. Thats kinda missing the point though.

I can see the benefits of more discipline, but only up to a point. Beyond that point, the benefits will become marginal. People in the US are already fairly disciplined even without the Mormons, so their benefit will be marginal.

dfs:

.... I'm not a Mormon myself....

I can't tell you the number of times I've read such statements inserted into religious "sales" comments. They're all over youtube, for example, in mormon and jehovah's witness videos. Of course, it doesn't even need to be said that they're lies (to a large extent).

The percentage of believers happy to LIE for their religion is...scary.

Mormonism is a sick, sick cult. They're "Stepford people." The effectiveness of the organizational abilities is a testament to the pervasiveness of their brain-washing.

I do agree with the OP on one issue, though: They have A LOT in common with muslims.

You know symp:

1] All of the statements I make are either backed up by hard statistics or by the historical record. [i.e.; I can read the history of the Mountain Meadows massacre, I don't need mormon historians 'interpreting' it for me.]

2] Statistically, Mormons divorce at EXACTLY the same rate as non-Mormons. [http://www.religioustolerance­.org/lds_divo.htm}

3] If you are talking about this PEW study – <link>
It said nothing about "incredibly high rate of adherence to church principles and religiosity amoung church members." The study dealt exclusively with how mormons are viewed by others. It said nothing about 'rate of adherence to church principles' or 'incredibly high rate of adherence to church principles' or 'relgiosity' amoung mormons.

If you are talking about this PEW study - <link>

As far as being more religious than other denominations the study showed that mormons' religion were no more important to them than the religion of evangelical, historically black Protestant faiths and Jehovah's Witnesses.

mormon's belief in God and in the bible is higher than in other groups, however, I am not sure how relevant this question is to the issue at hand. It asks someone about an entirely subjective matter and then relates the results of the answers in a statistical manner. Nor does it show, empirically, that people who have a strong belief in the bible are 'good people' or willing to act in a more socially acceptable manner. In fact, it says nothing at all about people.

The study showed that less mormons attend church on a weekly basis than Jehovah's Witnesses.

57% of mormons said their's was the one true faith, but 39% said it wasn't.

68% of mormons feel there is more than one way to practice their faith.

I could go on, but you get the idea. Nowhere in this study are the words, "about 'rate of adherence to church principles' or 'incredibly high rate of adherence to church principles' or 'relgiosity' amoung mormons" used. Your statements may be your interpretation of what the study says, but they are no more valid than anyone else's interpretation of the study.

In the end, PEW studies are mere polls. They deal entirely with subjective criteria. There is, in fact, no way to obtain a statistically significant sample of answers to these questions that are not subjective. Therefore, their value is questionable.

4] Religiosity is defined as "1. the quality of being religious; piety; devoutness.
2. affected or excessive devotion to religion." Religion is defined as "something one believes in and follows devotedly" [Thanks, Dictionary.com]

One can watch the same TV program "religiously." One can perform exercises "religiously." Et cetera. A person's religiosity saws nothing about the value of their belief system or the 'goodness' of their character. It simply says one pays a great deal of attention to doing one thing over and over, again. I don't know how 'religious' mormons are, as a whole, but being devout to their religion does not make them 'good people' and it has nothing to do with whether their belief system is 'right,' 'correct,' 'real' or the 'best of all religions.'

Elizabeth Clare Prophet's followers were so devoted to their religion, (the I AM ascended masters), that they, willingly, gave her all their money; moved to Corwin Springs, MT.; spent over a million dollars building bomb shelters; and crawled into them on the date and time she said the world would be destroyed in a nuclear holocaust. Probably, both you and I would think that ECP's followers were 'devout' and 'religious' in their beliefs and their practice of their beliefs was frequent. At the same time, we both can think her followers where deranged in how they behaved as a result of their devotion. [Read her Wikipedia page about fall out shelters: <link> [By the way, the bomb shelters are still there, Elizabeth Clare Prophet is not.]

Devotion to a set of beliefs does not make one person better than another. Nor does it say anything about the validity of the belief.

4] About 'besmirching' mormons. I could care less than zero that you feel I am 'besmirching' mormons. I am not. I am, merely, pointing out the more ridiculous points written about in the Slate article and, subsequently, made by posters about mormonism

5] You are besmirching me by calling my factual based statements as 'dubious assertions.' As far as my own experiences with members of your cult, they are my experiences. Nothing more, northing less. Unless you were there and inside my head, which I doubt, you cannot offer anything useful about them.

6] You have failed to provide one scintilla of "empirical evidence" backing up your statements.

We disagree. I think your religion is a cult, with factually demonstrated damaging psychosocial sequela.

You do not.

I think that reflects a serious lack of judgment on your part. You probably think the same about me.

That's great. This is what America is about.

"I can't tell you the number of times I've read such statements inserted into religious "sales" comments."

I thought I was the only one who noticed these statemetns... LOL

Yet another fine example of mormon upbringing resulting a highly ethical and humane individual.

Someone said in discussing this article, that there would be no 'mormon taliban.' I guess Dr. Jassen's interrogation techniques prove that, not only are they willing to torture people, they are willing to do it with nothing more than a profit motive. If there is no government to control them, mormon's like Dr. Jassen, will be imposing their will on others with unbridled restraint...

"Interrogation, Inc - 2 U.S. Architects of Harsh Tactics in 9/11’s Wake"

<link>

"They had never carried out a real interrogation, only mock sessions in the military training they had overseen. They had no relevant scholarship; their Ph.D. dissertations were on high blood pressure and family therapy. They had no language skills and no expertise on Al Qaeda.

But they had psychology credentials and an intimate knowledge of a brutal treatment regimen used decades ago by Chinese Communists."

"In the 1980s, Dr. Jessen ... had grown up in a Mormon community with a view of Grand Teton, earning a doctorate at Utah State..."

"At the SERE graduate school, Dr. Jessen is remembered for an unusual job switch, from supervising psychologist to mock enemy interrogator.

Dr. Jessen became so aggressive in that role that colleagues intervened to rein him in, showing him videotape of his “pretty scary” performance..."

"...wrote the first proposal to turn the enemy’s brutal techniques — slaps, stress positions, sleep deprivation, wall-slamming and waterboarding — into an American interrogation program."

"Dr. Jessen joined his partner in Thailand. On Aug. 1, the Justice Department completed a formal legal opinion authorizing the SERE methods, and the psychologists turned up the pressure. Over about two weeks, Mr. Zubaydah was confined in a box, slammed into the wall and waterboarded 83 times."

"But top C.I.A. officials made no changes, and the methods would be used on at least 27 more prisoners, including Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who was waterboarded 183 times."

Now, I am sure mormons on this forum will run back to their bishops, who will tell them this isn't true, at all. They will say Jessen was just trying to help his country in the days after 9/11. That they are being mischaracterized.

The truth is, Dr. Jessen, et al, created, packaged and sold torture to the Bush administration. Torture techniques that didn't work. The responsibility for the methods used to torture prisoners lays, almost exclusively, at their doorstep.

I guess mormons are different than the rest of us - they espouse the use of torture to gain information, even when they know it didn't work...

You're basing your view of Mormons on one person's behaviour? Jesse James was a Mormon. Does that mean all Mormons are like him. Moron.

dfs, That's ridiculous. Mormons have the highest rates of suicide of any religious group and the highest rates of depression and use of anti-depressants. They also have the highest rate of child neglect and abuse and domestic abuse and spousal rape.