enter the fray: our reader discussion forum
Search in:
Advanced
View:FlatThreaded
Poetry - Defending the absurd
by denny
+2/-1 Reply


There has been a discussion going on about the status and fate of poetry in America now for nearly a week. A lot of that discussion comes from an article in Newsweek which discusses a study by the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA) which points out that while reading in general in America is on the rise, the reading of poetry by the general public is in steep decline. In fact, data gathered by the NEA over the last 16 years indicates that poetry reading by the general public has decreased by 50% and that today, only 8.3% of those people read poetry.

Now, all day Thursday, after I posted the OPP on Willard Espy, Ted, MaryAnn and Waltz, among othres, have been arguing that none of that was true and have staunchly tried to argue that poetry was alive and well in the Universities and among poets. That is absolutely true - and I wholeheartedly agree. But that totally mises the point that Espy, Newsweek, the NEA and others hve always argued - that poetry as a PUBLIC Art Form is dying. Notice that I did not say that there are fewer poets - nor did I say that they are writing fewer poems. I didn't even say that I didn't enjoy some of what is being written. What I.said is that it isn't being read by the general public any more. And what Newsweek said, just as Espy had said, was that some critics and readers claim that most poetry today is too cloistered and inaccessible,

John Barr, president of the Poetry Foundation, in an address to the Association of Writers & Writing Programs, admitted that "popular poetry writing for the common reader essentially disappeared with the advent of Modernism and was replaced by the 20th-century model, in which the increased fragmentation and difficulty of poetry required specialists to discern it, moving it out of the public and into the college classroom."

For some, like Ted and MaryAnn, this perfectly OK. MaryAnn blames the drop on people "watching too much TV and or sitting at their computers", despite the fact (as noted by the NEA) that people are actully reading more today - just not poetry - and suggested that the solution is that people who already read poetry "should buy more books of poetry". She also suggested that perhaps I should find another poetry board.

Waltz accused me of egalitarian proselytizing - of being an anti-intellectual who perceives myself as a champion of the ordinary people and populism against elitism, especially academic elitism. Perhaps so. But I am also very concerned that poetry is fading away as a public art form - reserved only for the elite. I do not believe, as some "experts" have claimed, that modern poetry is "too dificult" for the average reader. I believe instead that we have ignored those readers for too long and never taught them HOW to appreciate modern poetry. I am afraid that the current generation is probably lost. But todays children and the next generation can still be "saved" and taught to love poetry just as those here on Poems Fray do. The solution is not, as Ted, MaryAnn and Waltz might suggest, to accept thesituation as it is. Rather, it is up to each and every person who truly loves poetry to dowhatever than can to encourage the effective teaching of poetry to our children so that as adults they might love poetry.

OK - I'll get off my soap box and you can return to posting, reading ad writing poetry.

TAP

d;-)

Re: Poetry - Defending the absurd
by White_Rabbit

An interesting argument comes higher up in the same Newsweek article [emphasis mine]:

Poetry, for all its merits, has no program or volume to rival the current popularity of Oprah and Harry Potter, but even so, the decline of its already modest following is noteworthy. Some critics and readers claim that most poetry today is too cloistered and inaccessible, or that it is just plain bad. Yet a telephone survey conducted in 2005 by the National Opinion Research Center on behalf of the Poetry Foundation found that only 2 percent of respondents said they didn't read poetry because it was "too hard." And Donald Hall, a former U.S. poet laureate, points out that most poetry in any age is bad, and that hasn't kept people from reading in the past.

I wonder if Mr. Hall takes into account that the "badness" may not be quantitatively different, but it may be qualitatively different. I've noticed that people can wade through a surprising amount of bad to mediocre poetry in order to find the real gems, so long as the bad to mediocre stuff still resembles something a sane human being would write. It can be argued -- successfully, I think -- that there is nothing sane about the philosophies being expressed by much of poetry, and indeed by much of any art form whatever, in these latter days. This isn't a matter of difficulty; there's nothing difficult at the core about certain kinds of music (for example) which a good number of people still find instinctively offensive. The same tension works in poetry, surely.

Exposure to poetry (next paragraph in Newsweek) is probably a relevant factor (IMO). If (as was said in another Newsweek article, if memory serves) twenty years in popular music today is like a millennium once was, imagine the effect of "future shock" on one's potential to appreciate English literature in its many historical changes.

And then there are these paragraphs, to which Denny has already alluded:

Even if readership is down, not everyone is concerned. In fact, popularity is itself a fraught subject in the poetry community. In an address to the Association of Writers & Writing Programs this February, the president of the Poetry Foundation, John Barr, described how the popular poet writing for the common reader essentially disappeared with the advent of Modernism. The 19th-century model of poets publishing in mainstream venues such as newspapers was replaced by the 20th-century model, in which the increasing fragmentation and difficulty of poetry required specialists to discern it, moving it into the college classroom. Today, to call a poem "accessible" is practically an insult, and promotional events like National Poetry Month are derided by many poetry diehards as the reduction of a complex and often deeply private art form to a public spectacle.

A few years after the launch of National Poetry Month, poet Charles Bernstein wrote in a caustic essay that April is now when "poets are symbolically dragged into the public square in order to be humiliated with the claim that their product has not achieved sufficient market penetration." He added that "National Poetry Month is about making poetry safe for readers by promoting examples of the art form at its most bland and its most morally 'positive'."

While I certainly empathize as a writer with the problems inherent in public exposure of private feelings, the ensemble is the risk that every artist worthy of the name takes. Perhaps good old Jungian psychology is partly at work here. Temperamental Catalysts or NFs -- by far the most likely to write and appreciate poetry overall (they were not disproportionately the shamans, priests and psalmists of antiquity, by and large, for nothing) -- are the very ones whose feelings are most likely to be hurt by rejection by their audiences. After that there are the SFs, especially the ISFP "Artists" and ESFP "Performers". Perhaps more NTs and STs are trying these days to write poetry and to teach it, not making the fundamental mental connections that come to Fs naturally. I believe that one can get around this, that if one finds out how one writes best then one can succeed in that niche (poetry based on mathematical and scientific ideas, or on particular brands of humor, may fall in this category).

But there is something deeper going on, and the last paragraph cited from Newsweek touches upon it. I submit that poetry cannot be both bland and "morally positive", no more than it can be both a mere primal scream and "morally positive". Such thinking stems from a misunderstanding of what moral positivism is. This likely wasn't a mistake commonly made when the King James Bible was the gold standard both for dignity and vigor in poetry and prose alike (and throughout the gamut of proper human emotion) and for public and private morality. It would be interesting and valuable to do a study on the subject, in order to test this hypothesis: one worthy of a Ph.D. thesis at least, in my opinion.

I believe there is something else fundamentally wrong with the thinking expressed in the last two paragraphs in Newsweek. When poets forget that the primary purpose of poetry is to communicate, then poetry inevitably will become needlessly complex and fragmented, needlessly ingrown and inbred, needlessly subject to the egos of the poet and his peers, and needlessly subject to the aid of specialist interpretation. "Public penetration" isn't the issue per se. Some of the best communicators among poets in history were among the most unpopular; people had the annoying habit of sawing them in two, or stoning them, or hanging them on crosses, and such like. Yet their works lived on long, long after their most severe critics perished, and have a deep penetration into the public even in this secular age.

wr ()()

the Pepsi Challenge
by MaryAnn
Rabbit, I notice that you have had plenty of time to post to the PoemsFray yesterday and today, so I'm pretty sure you will be able to find the time to talk with Robert Pinsky when he returns. As I said yesterday, he made himself available for 4 days the last time he was here. All you have to do is post something to him whenever it's convenient to you, and he will reply to you whenever it's convenient to him.
Re: Poetry - Defending the absurd
by denny


I think, friend Rabbit, that you and I are of a like mind on this and that The Ana-Pests (TAP) are viewed as being "anti-intellectuals who champion of the ordinary people and populism against elitism, especially academic elitism". I can't speak for NoStar, but I suspect he would agree as well. The attitudes exhibited yesterday also explains why some are so adamently opposed to the Tuesday Limerick Fests - as if we were "symbolically dragging poets and poetry into the public square in order to be humiliated "- a statement which MaryAnn has essentially made on several occasions and which explains why Robert Pinsky gave NoStar a "Thumbs Down" when he was on here last.

As you correctly noted - "to call a poem "accessible" is practically an insult, and promotional events like National Poetry Month are derided by many poetry diehards as the reduction of a complex and often deeply private art form to a public spectacle."

Poetry has been reduced to an art fom largely reserved for the Literati and the culturally elite. I perceive a real distain for the general public in this. We have seen that attitude exhibited here on Poems Fray on a regular basis. How else do you interpret MaryAnn's
suggestion that perhaps I should "find another poetry site?", parenthetically implying that the Ana-Pests and those like us are incapable of understanding the "value" of the poetry that they enjoy and that our criticism of some poetry is a sign of our own ignorance. It would appear that they are embarrassed by our presence here, especially when they have to talk to their "poet friends".

TAP

d;-)

MaryAnn - the Pepsi Challenge
by denny

I believe that White Rabbit and I have just MADE our statement regarding this subject. It only requires Robert Pinsky to come back to this post to argue his own position, much as Jom Powell did with the comments of Ted Burke about Jim's poetry.


QED

d;-)

copout
by MaryAnn

I believe that White Rabbit and I have just MADE our statement regarding this subject. It only requires Robert Pinsky to come back to this post to argue his own position, much as Jom Powell did with the comments of Ted Burke about Jim's poetry.

What an UNBELIEVABLE copout, denny. You make your comments when Pinsky is not on the board for discussion. The ball is NOT in his court to somehow realize that you have said some things while he was not available and reply to them. Just because Jim Powell might lurk here doesn't mean that Pinsky has to as well.

I again challenge you to post to Pinsky DURING THE WEEK HE IS HERE.

And remember, Jim Powell never got back to us after dishonorably asking us to criticize Ted's remarks.

Re: Poetry - Defending the absurd
by MaryAnn

Poetry has been reduced to an art form largely reserved for the Literati and the culturally elite.

Denny, like waltz, I am tired of your anti-intellectualism, your reverse snobbery in the above statement. If someone enjoys intellectually stimulating poetry, that does not make him or her culturally elite.

I perceive a real disdain for the general public in this.

Since when do you speak for the general public? And remember, one of the surveys quoted elsewhere said that most people surveyed did not think modern poetry is too hard.

We have seen that attitude exhibited here on Poems Fray on a regular basis. How else do you interpret MaryAnn's suggestion that perhaps I should "find another poetry site?", parenthetically implying that the Ana-Pests and those like us are incapable of understanding the "value" of the poetry that they enjoy and that our criticism of some poetry is a sign of our own ignorance.

Your parenthetical implication is your own pathetic spin on what I said, denny. And to remind you, what I said is this –

If you don't like Pinsky's picks, why don't you find a poetry discussion board that pleases you more?

And I’m still waiting for an answer to this genuine and sincere question.

It’s a convenient scenario, denny – those terrible elitists versus us real people. But the truth is that while you have, several times, accused Ted and me of being elitists, we have never accused you of being ignorant.

I do, however, accuse you of beating the same dead horse week after week. And I do challenge you to talk to Pinksy during the week he is on the PoemsFray.

A "copout" MaryAnn ?
by denny


I believe that Rabbit and I have directly, concisely and emphatically stated our positions, something I have yet to see you do honestly. While you engage in snide innuento and often veiled distain, we have openly and unequivocally stated our position.

You have, on occasion, criticized me for "beating a dead horse" and too frequentlly repeating my postion on certain days while we are evaluating the weekly poem. Now you seem to be saying that you want me to repeat it all again, even though it is quite completely stated here. I believe, now that you have determined the problem, are capable of posting LINKS, much as I have here to emphacise the past comments of Ted, Waltz and you.

Interesting as well that you consider Jim Powel to bethe "dishonorable" one when it was Ted who critixized Jim's poetry YEARS after it had been posted on SLATE.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

QED

d;-)

So now it's 'POETRY AS A PUBLIC ART FORM"
by Ted Burke

It hasn't been "a public art form" for decades longer than you or I have been alive. You have made no statement about "public poetry" was the form that was dying until last night, and this is classic denny maneuver. You were speaking broadly about all poetry . The qualification you introduce here mark is made in bad faith.

Re: A "copout" MaryAnn ?
by Ted Burke

Well , you are beating a dead horse, the deceased best being your idea that poetry is dead, not poetry itself. Despite your protests , poetry goes on as usual. It's as though your irate because the rest of us won't join you in the funeral chorus. It's time, I think, for you to drop this nonsense and move on to your next scheduled crisis.

There is no deadline on how long a Slate poem can be interpreted on The Fray. We've been commenting on poems that have been written years ago with the Thursday OPP for several years, and more recently we've been doing it with Robert Pinsky's monthly classic poem selections. We would need to include the innumerable rants, raves and flame wars previously published poems have inspired here over time, conversations you've both introduced and participated in.

It's a bit tacky that Jim Powell would want to wage war against me by proxy rather than speak to me directly. Had he done that, we might have an interesting exchange. He would at least would have had his say.

MaryAnn
by denny

If you don't like Pinsky's picks, why don't you find a poetry discussion board that pleases you more?

And I’m still waiting for an answer to this genuine and sincere question.

WHERE did I ever say that I didn't like the Pinsky Picks ? Yes - NoStar, White Rabbit and I have, from time to time "panned" the weekly poems. But who hasn't ? I haven't seen you suggest they leave. Didn't Ted Burke just pan three of Jim Powell's poems (poem which I liked) - did you suggest that HE should leave ? I see this more as you simply not liking some individuals of PFray for your own personal reasons. But we are not here to please you - nor to cater to your whim. And no matter how frequently you enlist the aid of your buddies Inkberrow, Zeusboy and Catnapping from WOTF - we have no intention of running away.

TAP

d;-)

By no means "run away"---just make friends with the truth.
by Inkberrow
denny:

WHERE did I ever say that I didn't like the Pinsky Picks ?

TAP's typical PFray Tuesday morning---

Heh, heh, look what the cat dragged in, the latest Tuesday Tripe! No need to read it more one skimsworth---they call this crap poetry? what kind of dry dessicated person would like this stuff? But let's get right on to our smarmy, self-reverential limericks designed to make fun not only of the Tuesday Tripe itself, but mostly to sneer at any godforsaken Poems Fray regulars who might actually like the Tripe, or who regardless might get all stodgy and huffy about initially "respecting" Pinsky and the Tuesday poet, and sometimes taking poetry and exegeses "seriously" (wotta joke!). Heck, it's all about (making) fun, unless we are the targets of that!

MaryAnn -, I see that the emails have been "flying"
by denny


Yet you cannot produce an example of where I have said that I don't like the Pinsky Picks. This week I said - "Erica Ehrenberg has written an engaging and entertaining poem . . "

About "Symbols" I said - "Winston Churchill's famous quote is a perfect description of todays poem by Billy Collins, where nothing is real, nothing what it appears to be, like Alice looking through the looking glass into a world that is pure fantasy. How appropriate that Collins begins the poem as if telling us a fairy tale"

About The Fate of Pleasure I said - "the narrator describes an American folk art painting, Outing on the Hudson (c. 1850) which focuses on the human presence on the river through oversized figures and "industrial components".

Doesn't sound like I hate the Pinsky Tuesday picks. But then, perhaps you "know better" . .


TAP

d;-)


Re: Poetry - Go to Borders...there are more books on fantasy
by MasterJay

than any other subject...which I had read somewhere historically occurs when in times of economic struggle,but you never see a new release of poetry unless it is a Maya Angelou.

Sadly,the poetry section seems to be the least crowded in the store.

Re: Poetry - Defending the absurd
by LaurieAnnM

Gee..just reading through some old stuff and saw this. This was a pretty good post. I hope whenever you do get back (and I know even though you made some ill thought out attempts to shirk your ban ..you have now decided to really take the time ,to get your rest and re-group..and I'm glad because we care about you)....but, in the future, when you do, I hope that you will write more good stuff like this.

Meanwhile..please don't do anything more to get yourself in more hot water here. I'd like to see you come back as civil and a strong as you have been the few couple years before things started getting to you again.

I really admired the Herculean efforts you made and succeeded at these past two years where you absolutely refused to be drawn into any pettiness or reacted to any snark. I saw you doing that (remaining above that pettiness) for a long time, and it was inspiring to me. So, I was so sorry to see how things went out of control these past few weeks with you...but you're human and it can happen to anyone.

I also know you are strong and very capable of not allowing yourself to get into those sorts of petty squabbles. So, hope that will all turn out well one day in the future here.

I know how much you really love poetry and Poems Fray so I know if you try you can be strong and not fall into the things that get posters in trouble here.

Meanwhile..please don't antagonize the editor..he seems like a pretty good guy.

~LAM

View as RSS news feed in XML