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Here's what would piss me off...
by paddyd

If my neighbors and the police thought that I was so stupid I'd try to burglarize a house through the front door at one in the afternoon.

Professor Gates, I venture to guess, is smart enough to go around the back if he wants to commit a burglary. Or, just maybe, do it at night.

Nobody behaved well here. Part of it has to do with personal temperament, and part of it has to do with the racism that still conditions the way all people of all races see each other in this country. Other parts of it have to do with class, and job description.

I'd be willing to bet of it probably has to do with the way that (working class?) Cambridge police feel patronized by the people who work at Harvard and other elite institutions in the area. In that regard, Professor Gates probably has a few asshole white colleagues to thank for his treatment, as well as police arrogance, racism and his own yelling.
Re: Here's what would piss me off...
by bobsmythe1
Most (62.4 percent) burglaries happen during the day between 6am and 6pm, and 34 percent of burglars enter through the front door.
Re: Here's what would piss me off...
by paddyd

So what percentage of burglaries happen during the day AND through the front door? Based on what you've written, it's no higher than 34%, and could be as low as 0%. I think a generous estimate would be 34% of 62%, or somewhere around 21.2%.

I stand by my original post.

How did Gates behave badly?
by degsme

How did Gates behave badly?

  • Was there a warrant in effect allowing the Cops onto his property?
  • Was there a "hot pursuit" in effect allowing the Cops onto his property?
  • Was there any obvious evidence of a crime allowing the Copse onto his property?
  • Was there any real basis that Gates would have been reasonably aware of for why a cop is asking for his ID and asking for him to step outside his house?

Where the hell is Gates behaviing badly? I'd act the same way in the same circumstances. Except being white I'd never be in those circumstances.

Re: How did Gates behave badly?
by mcmallen

There was no warrant because the alleged "crime" was in progress.

See above

Citizen complaint backed up by busted front door lock (Gates told Root it was damaged while he was out of town, so apparently someone actually did try to break in)

This is where we probably part company, if a cop asks me to do something, and to step outside isn't much to ask, I assume there is a good reason for it. Gates also refused to answer a question the cop asked...he refused to say what the question was in the Root article. Gates also claimed fear of police as a reason for his bizzare actions.

Calling anyone a racist is a very ugly thing, and for cops it can be a career ender, as opposed to a career in black studies as Mr. Gates enjoys.

Door was closed
by degsme

As I understand it the door was closed. There was no obvious signs of a crime in progress. Hence "hot pursuit" ceases to be operative.

I've been asked enough unreasonable things by cops that I won't comply without a legal reason to do so. Precisely because I know well enough that they have been trained to ask things in a way that my actions can often be construed as a surrender of my rights.

this ranges from asking a cop why I had to put my employer on the traffic ticket she was giving me and then refusing to sign it when she filled it in as "refused to answer" - (I didn't refuse, I simply asked under what legal basis was she authorized to ask that question), to watercops seeking to board my vessel when they had no rights to do so.

And yes, being racist as a cop can be a career ender. Hence why the cop should have been aware that the only part of the description of the suspects that matched Gates was Race and Gender, and that hence he, the cop, was on very very dubious grounds in pursuing the issue.

Re: How did Gates behave badly?
by MisterPerson

Ironically, the cop had given mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to a Black star athlete in a critical situation.

How many white liberals out there who talk a good race politics game would find any excuse to avoid doing something like that if they were on the scene?

If Gates had needed mouth-to-mouth - the cop would have done his duty, too.

Re: Here's what would piss me off...
by bobsmythe1
I was simply educating you on the facts of burglary in order to demonstrate that assuming a burglary isn't happening during the day and through the front door is not logical or safe. 21.2% isn't a generous estimate, it's the most reasonable one given the data. And given the fact your first sentence made no sense, a conditional without a conclusion, the assumptions of your neighbors pertaining to your stupidity aren't obvious.
Re: How did Gates behave badly?
by paddyd

I didn't say Gates "behaved badly." I said "No one behaved well." I believe that Gates had a right to be angry, but that if he had managed not to yell, the outcome might have been different. I believe that once he had been called a racist, which to most people is a term of abuse, the police officer had a right to be angry, but if he had defused the situation (which, in my view, was primarily his responsibility), instead of arresting Gates, he'd had done a better job. I believe that the woman who called it in saw black men on the porch, and assumed they didn't belong in the neighborhood, but she called the police when she thought her neighbor was being burglarized.

In other words, everyone did things within their rights, everyone's feelings made sense, everyone did something they thought was right, and the whole thing erupted in a clusterfuck because it happened in a context where any flaw in anyone's behavior was magnified by the long history of racism in the United States, especially on the part of law enforcement. I don't think that we, or our children will ever get past that context, and when people get angry, as they do, the context makes their imperfections (sometimes) farcical, (sometimes) tragic and always depressing.

I teach. If something analogous took place in a classroom, it would be my professional responsibility to defuse a potentially explosive situation in a class discussion, and I (hope I) would take responsibility if I didn't. In this case, it was the police officer who was professionally responsible for the situation turning out as it did.

One thing about the Lenny Bias situation: the kid wasn't sassing the cop.

Ironic how?
by degsme
MisterPerson:

Ironically, the cop had given mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to a Black star athlete in a critical situation.

How many white liberals out there who talk a good race politics game would find any excuse to avoid doing something like that if they were on the scene?

If Gates had needed mouth-to-mouth - the cop would have done his duty, too.

What's Ironic about that? Doing your job in one case and no the other is ironic how?

The neighbor's awareness
by degsme

The problem with that analysis is that the neighbor's awareness was clearly influenced by race. As was the cops perception of the crime still being in progress

Gates had every reasonable right to not just be angry but to yell at the cop. The Cop was trespassing.

Re: Here's what would piss me off...
by paddyd

Actually the first sentence was: "Here's what would piss me off: If my neighbors..." The header begins a sentence that continues in the post. I admit it isn't a strictly grammatical sentence, but I never intended it to be, and I assumed that most readers would follow what I was trying to do. Audience analysis fail on my part, clearly. (Yes, I know that's not a sentence, either.)

Anyway, in my neighborhood it would be supremely stupid to stand on someone's front porch in the daytime and try to jimmy the door. I work at home; I would notice. The cello teacher across the way would notice. The contractor across the street who is in and out of his shed all day would notice, especially as burglars tried to break into the back door of his house on night last month, and he thinks they tried other houses as well. The retired guy next door who sits on his porch or works on his lawn would notice. Any of the above would either intervene or call the cops. The one in five burglaries that happen through the front door during daylight don't happen here in Iowa City with much frequency, at least not in my part of town, where the academics (like, for example, Professor Gates) live.

Trust me, I'm over-educated. I don't need any more.

Re: How did Gates behave badly?
by Doc Holliday
"This is where we probably part company, if a cop asks me to do something, and to step outside isn't much to ask, I assume there is a good reason for it."

Oh, you assume there was a good reason for it. Why, because you think cops never lie or deceive people? Their job is all about lying. Look at the police report in this case...

Cowards never stand up for their rights.
Re: Here's what would piss me off...
by Doc Holliday
"Anyway, in my neighborhood it would be supremely stupid to stand on someone's front porch in the daytime and try to jimmy the door. I work at home; I would notice. The cello teacher across the way would notice."

Another person who relies on 'good neighbors' [by the way, the caller in this case did not live in the neighborhood] to prevent property crimes. Sorry, but this is a myth. Just like any black man in a white neighborhood is a criminal.
Re: Here's what would piss me off...
by paddyd
Boy, did you read badly, Doc. I lock my doors. To the degree I rely on anything, I rely on that.

The point, again, is this: if I were in the business of burglary, I wouldn't do it in such a way that the people on the block could observe me; I'd be offended if someone thought I would.

It seems to me curious that in a discussion of what happened after a neighbour (as you say, in this case, a more or less random person) called the police, you say of the notion that someone would call the police, "this is a myth." It may be rare, but in this case it happened, didn't it?

If I struggled with my front door (as actually has happened until we replaced the lock), and one of my neighbours, or neighbour's friends, called the cops on me, and I thought it was racial, I'd be completely polite with the police officer, and then go have a polite conversation with the neighbour. If I thought their thinking was racial (as I think it was was in this case), I might remind them that not all African Americans are criminals. And, based on this evidence, I would draw some conclusions on how white people think.

I firmly believe that African American notions of how whites think about race are largely the result of experience. Professor Gates is fifty-eight, so he was born in 1951 or 1950. How many white folks do people think he's encountered that engaged in racist discourse or behaviour? What was the society he observed growing up like? What conclusions would a reasonable person draw? How many times would he have the polite, educational conversation with people who didn't get it before he/she gave it up and went about his business?

If I thought the police officer abused his power, I'd wait the incident out and then go talk to his supervisor, who would see me because I'm a homeowner, a long time resident of this community, and white. I wouldn't expect anything to happen immediately, but I'd expect to be listened to.

However, I believe that the calm and clearsightedness necessary to defuse this incident at any point after the yelling began are pretty near superhuman (for both the cop and the professor).

I don't think it's Gates or the cop we should be examining but our institutions and ourselves.

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